Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...

[Franek Grabowski]

Juha
The fact that aircraft is manouverable does not make it a good fighter. Dangerous is also a very relative term, and Me 109 could have been downed even by I-5, if pilot was careless.

[Juha]

Franek
"The fact that aircraft is manouverable does not make it a good fighter."

No in itself but it helps. And Finns thought that Yak-9 was as good climber as 109G.

"Me 109 could have been downed even by I-5, if pilot was careless."

Highest ranking FAF ace killed during summer 44 (Nissinen) was extreme unlucky but next highest (Saarinen) would have survived if his opponents had been I-5s.

La-5 was dangerous opponent even to carefull and alert 109G pilot.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Soviet fighter pilot recalled:

It was harder to fight againts Finns, than againts germans. Why?

Because finns used slow, very maneuvreble aircrafts. Hawks or Brewsters. When they saw our Yaks and La's, the knew will not escape, and started amazing furball. Usually my head was circling for 360* and almost jumped out from showlders! There ALWAYS were "on the edge" furballs!

In case with germans: usually they flew high over us. You see, WHEN they start to attack, and JUST start a little maneuvering, to show them that You see them and theyr attack WILL NOT BE SUDDEN FOR US, THAT WE ARE PREPARED TO FIGHT.

Usually, they IMMEDIATLY breaked off theyr attack and get away to search for another easier target.

[Franek Grabowski]

It is hard to shot down a nimble aircraft, sometimes impossible, but does the fact that Camel outmanoeuvered Hurricane in a mock-up dogfight make it a better fighter? Or if EE Lightning had some problems to get on Spitfire, does it mean RAF should rely on the latter type?
The war is not fighting dog fights but killing the enemy. Germans just did the thing as described, engaging or disengaging at will, and their better aircraft allowed them to do so. It would look just the same with the western powers.

[Juha]

Come on Franek, no need to make self-clear points.

And Finnish pilots were well aware of the purpose of air combat and I'm sure so were Soviets. In fact FAF's high command thought in 1943 that Finnish pilots were too aware of that and tried desperately to restrict the hunt for kills over areas where there was powerful Soviet AA. High command thought that it was not worth to risk scare planes and pilots to powerful AA for a few kills and that it was better to spare them to next real need. But it was very difficult to convince pilots on that. In the end it was ordered that no kills made over those AA areas would be accepted and pilots flying over those areas without permission would be punished.

Juha

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kalender1973

Kutscha, and you will say, this few dosen(s) wipped out the germans from the sky? How many german planes claims the 4, 354,356 FG on 6.03.1944? 30-35? My point is that the key for air superiority for the west ally was also the numerical superiority and not a single plane type. That was german idea with a few planes reach victory in air war: Me-262. The result is well known.

The 353rd was a P-47 Group until Dec 1944, the 354FG , 363FG and 4th FG and 357FG were only Mustang Groups.. this was first Mustang combat encounter for 4th FG who actually learned to fly the airplane only two days before.

The 354FG lost 1 air, 2 weather for 8 air awards
The 363FG lost 11 in weather over North Sea - worst day for 8th AF FC in war.
The 4FG lost 3 air (1 M/A/C with shot down Me 110, 2 shot down by Do 217 gunners), one mechanical for 15 air awards
357FG zero losses - for 18 air awards.

Actually, in my opinion Franek is right. The four Mustang and two operational P-38 Groups were all that was available to engage the LuftFlotte Reich on March 6 beyond Dummer Lake. By the end of April the 355th, 352nd would add their Mustangs and the 364th would add one more Lightning Group.

The P-47s did not perform Target Escort, only Penetration and Withdrawal. The Battle of Germany was in the very few hands of five Mustan Groups and three Lightning Groups. The Mustangs were THE major contributors to the defeat of the Luftwaffe over Germany and achieving air superiority.

In all, the 8th AF Merlin Mustang only flew half the sorties, destroyed approximately twice the German fighters in the air than the P-38 and P-47 Combined, destroyed three times as many German fighters on the ground as the P-47/P-38s combined, and lost the same amount of Mustangs in air battles as the P-47/P-38 Combined.http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...OPERATIONS.pdf



Yes, the Target Escort available during 1944 NEVER exceeded the number of single engine day fighters in LuftFlotte Reich until December when the 78th and 353rd converted to P-51s. The LW was also able to try to form masses of fighters and focus on imperfect fighter escort coverage, achiving great local numerical advantage over the Target Escorts.

Do the math. at the end of May 1944, approximately 6 Mustang and 3 Lightning Groups (~ 40-50 effectives per Group) were available to escort 3 Bomb Divisions of 500 bombers each over 40-50 miles to and from the Target... so approx 150 fighters to protect 40 miles of imperfect formations of 500 bombers per Division.

Regards,

Bill


The Luftwaffe claimed 5 Mustangs for 6 March - not 30-35.

[kalender1973]

Hi Bill,

thanks for the link. It is very intresting statistic. But with this statistic we risk the loss focus of the discussion: if the few Mustangs was key factor for the success of 8th air force.

First of all I suggest to narrow the time slice that we take in account. Our discussion focus on the first half 1944 until the landing in Normandy. As I already wrote, it was a turning point in air war. It were two different Luftwaffe, in spring and late autumn 1944. The german pilots reach there units only with 10-20 flying hours in their Bf109 or FW190. It is clear that the succeses of US fighter dramatically increased and in that time the P-51 was key US figther. And if you write about german losses on the ground, we must recall that most of them was suffered at two last week of the war, where the german put open there planes on their fields.

But if we look at the spring of 1944 the picture is something different. You write that P-47 reach only Dummer lake. But in my eyes it was enough. Due the decision of perephery defence the most german figther units were deployed even in the north and north-west Germany and Netherland: JG1, 11, I,II/JG3... And after the fight with the P-47, the germans with their short range planes must be refuelled and come rare to second concentrate attack. Therefore a few P-51 of direct escort was enough. But it is not fair to minimize role of other 8th air force fighters.

If you look at 6th march, than you must agree that it was not the best mission of USAAF. From 730 bomber was lost 69. And the main targed was not attacked. From 100 P-51 was lost 5 (5%) and from 615 P-47 was lost also 5 (0,8%). The P-51 claims only 43:36=1,2 more german planes as P-47. The numbers are not really fantastic.
And I would like to see the plane types of the P-51 claims, IIRC many of the were two engines from NJG's.

Best regards

[Kutscha]

MONDAY, 6 MARCH 1944

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 250: 504 B-17s and 226 B-24s are dispatched to hit industrial areas in the suburbs of Berlin; fierce fighter opposition claims 69 bombers (the highest number lost by the Eighth Air Force in a single day) and 11 fighters; the bombers claim 97-28-60 Luftwaffe fighters; details are:

1. 248 B-17s hit secondary targets in the Berlin area; 18 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 172 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 184 MIA.

2. 226 B-17s hit targets of opportunity at Templin, Verden, Kalkeberge,
Potsdam, Oranienburg and Wittenberg; 35 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 121 damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 354 MIA.

3. 198 B-24s hit the primary target (Genshagen industrial area), secondary targets in the Berlin area and targets of opportunity at Potsdam; 16 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 54 damaged; casualties are 15 KIA, 8 WIA and 148 MIA.

Escort is provided by 86 P-38s, 615 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
100 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; results are:

1. P-38s claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, the pilot is MIA.

2. P-47s claim 36-7-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 4 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 5 MIA.

3. P-51s claim 43-1-20 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-51s are lost and 2 damaged; casualties are 5 MIA.

Yes I know they are only claims but the P-51s had a better success rate than the P-47s.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Kutscha:

A little off-topic question:

Do You have the same list for 22.02.44?

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

Yes I know they are only claims but the P-51s had a better success rate than the P-47s.

Yes, 6 time more success rate for 6 time more loss rate. And the bomber suffers highst single day losses, also they were not able to protect they completely. Where the "miracle"?

If the ally did not land at Normandy, what increased dramatically number of sorties and as following the german losses, the bomber offensive could require the next ten year(without N-bomb). And as Korea show the result is not known.