22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)

[Larry deZeng]

Yes, very thorough, Chris. I would definitely say that puts a wrap on it. I was very surprised to see the AIR 40/2915 Supplement of 19 August 1944. I did not find that among the A.I.2.(b) copies held by our AFHRA (Air Force Historical Research Agency) at Maxwell AFB in Alabama. From the supplement, it appears Air Ministry Intelligence was just coming to grips with the several hundred satellites the Germans set up beginning in February 1944. For a while there, I suspect they were as confused as we have been!

The book by Mattiello that you referred to, Fliegerhorstkommandanturen und Flugplätze der deutschen Luftwaffe 1935-1945, was one of the last titles published by the highly acclaimed Biblio Verlag in Osnabrück. Maybe a year later, in 2001 or 2002, they went belly up and were acquired by Zeller Verlag. Zeller acquired Biblio's inventory but chose not to continue their publishing program, since it was not profitable. So the book's contents cannot be updated because there will be no future editions.

Your project concerning the Chalons area sounds exciting and worthwhile. If I could turn the clock back 50 years, I would grab a backpack, hop a plane and tromp around the French countryside with you in a nano second. But I will be available to provide you with any information I have on the airfields you explore. I am in the middle of documenting all of the airfields used by the Luftwaffe 1933-45 and I am just finishing up with the Reich. Next up will be France.

Go ahead and delete the images, Chris. I am through with them and I sure don't want to see you get into any hot water!

Cheers,

Larry

[Nick Beale]

Some impressive deduction from the fog of war!

I'd just repeat what I said before about Pocancy, that it might be the location of a Tactical HQ or quarters, rather than the name of an airfield.

I came across this a few times with units in Italy, a location was given that was a village fairly near a known airfield. No sense living on the base and losing your accommodation in an air raid, I guess.

[hautemarnechris]

Larry

I forgot to add that there was a landing ground at Oiry (see thumbnail in previous post) about two miles NW of Plivot and directly N of Oiry. It was under construction at the same time as Athis. If it became active then my guess is that Oiry was the landing ground referred to as "Plivot" in Ultra and possibly in other sources. Which suggests it may have been in use by II./Jg 3.

All the best

Chris

[hautemarnechris]

Nick

there was a landing ground at Pocancy - apparently it existed pre-war and was enhanced by the Luftwaffe and believed to be in use according to the AIR40 1944 airfield lists. I forgot to post the jpeg for it but can do so if you or Larry would like to see it. Of course that doesn't mean it wasn't being used as a Tac HQ or similar rather than as an airfield.

Thanks to both of you for staying with what was must have seemed like an "angels dancing on a pinhead" thread which has nevertheless been really helpful to me. One last question which concerns the combat report from Obergefr Dorn I posted earlier. I looked up the rank of "Obergefr". The rank seems to be equivalent to that of a British junior NCO. To me that seems a bit junior for a pilot. Or would Dorn have produced the report for the pilot concerned?

All the best.

Chris

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Chris,

You have done a great job! very interesting thread.

Obergefreiter Wilhelm Dorn belonged to the groundcrew of Stabskompanie II./JG 3. He was not a pilot.

best regards,
Rob

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by hautemarnechris

I looked up the rank of "Obergefr". The rank seems to be equivalent to that of a British junior NCO. To me that seems a bit junior for a pilot. Or would Dorn have produced the report for the pilot concerned?

All the best.

Chris

Rob's dealt with Dorn's role, but as for ranks there was no minimum for a Luftwaffe pilot although pilots who were Flieger (= Aircraftman 2nd Class in the RAF) seem to have been relatively few. Roughly equivalent commands were usually held by lower ranks than in the RAF as well, especially as the war went on.

[hautemarnechris]

Thanks Rob

my German is not good and I may have misinterpreted Dorn's report as an air combat report. Was it in fact reporting the shooting down of a US aircraft by ground fire? - Dorn being one of the gunners responsible?

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by hautemarnechris

Larry

I forgot to add that there was a landing ground at Oiry (see thumbnail in previous post) about two miles NW of Plivot and directly N of Oiry. It was under construction at the same time as Athis. If it became active then my guess is that Oiry was the landing ground referred to as "Plivot" in Ultra and possibly in other sources. Which suggests it may have been in use by II./Jg 3.

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris - I have the little blurb on Oiry from one of your images, so I am good with that one. But your page on Pocancy would be appreciated, just in case it has some updated details.

Thanks!

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Attachment 7969

Larry

this is the July 44 entry for Pocancy. I was wrong to tell you and Nick that it had been enhanced and was in use - it wasn't. That's almost certainly confirmation of Nick's view that it was being used as a Tac Hq or accomodation. I seem to recall some reference to Chateau St Georges which I think is in Pocancy village.

Hope that helps

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

Thanks for Pocancy, Chris. I didn't get any hits in my data base for "St-Georges" or a Château of the same name. The Germans loved châteaus so if one was in the Pocancy area I am sure they "borrowed" it.

Larry