Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A

[Clint Mitchell]

Thanks, you simply cannot gauge the tonal appearance of specific colours on black and white photos. There are many, many factors that can explain why in a specific photo a colour looks a lighter or darker tone than the same colour in another photo. It's clear that the segments that you are referring to are the lightest of the three colours on the upper surface... Was RLM 63 not the lightest in appearance of the 3 colours used in that scheme? So it would be more than reasonable to assume that the segments that appear the lightest are the ones that are coloured RLM 63 and not the two darker colours? Why would they choose to implement a completely different colour into the official scheme during this period?

As already stated the single triangular section of code overpaint could be RLM 02, I have seen colour surviving evidence of RLM 02 having been used to overpaint the codes on RLM70/71 aircraft so it's not outside the realms of possibility. It was quite a popular shade of paint for the units to have in stock as it's uses were numerous on LW aircraft.

"BTW, there are six combinations of three colors without any mirroring:
61/62/63, 62/63/61, 63/61/62, 61/63/62, 63/62/61, 62/61/63"

It's nice to know that you have come to this conclusion. Do you want to share what specific aircraft you have found this to be the case on? Can you provide evidence without us having to rely on your say so? I don't mean to be rude, but it's all very well and good for someone to make a statement like that as others have done in the past, but without providing evidence to your claim it doesn't really leave us a lot to work with...

Respectfully.

[Clint Mitchell]

You also have to take into consideration that not all batches of the same paint were exactly the same. There is clear evidence that there were numerous possibilities of differing shades of RLM65. This can be clearly seen when codes and other markings were overpainted with a different pot of RLM 65 at the unit compared to the pot of RLM 65 that they originally sprayed the aircraft in at the factory. Some of the differences in shade are quite staggering considering that essentially they should be the same colour. Photos and surviving examples confirm this as being an irrefutable fact.

[ChrisS]

Luftfahrt International 3 page 70
and from Ullmann's Luftwaffe Colours Page 43 Hikoki

[Graham Boak]

Clint: your sarcasm was totally uncalled for. Promoz's comment is just pointing out that these combinations are possible, not that they were used. Or even promulgated.

I don't have the Ju86 booklet either, sadly, but do offer a photo of a Ju86 in Uhlmann's book, p47, where the caption includes "...probably pattern A1a..." I would be sorry to find that quoting the opinions of leading researchers in our field was somehow unacceptable, especially when they happen to agree with one another.

[Clint Mitchell]

Oh dear the continually offended brigade has turned up. Graham if you cannot supply any evidence to refute my queries or findings please don't try and side step the situation by claiming that I offend you for calling previous research on the subject into question. My reply to Primoz I thought was reasonable. It was not intended to be sarcastic in anyway. A statement was made and I asked for evidence that might allow us to investigate it.

[Graham Boak]

Primoz's comment was simply a statement of the inherent possibilities and does not require any kind of comment other than a simple recognition of fact.

If I may summarise: there is evidence for a number of different schemes - the two Do17 schemes are not the same as the two for Hs123. (One of them is.) Therefore it cannot be a matter of a dogmatic ruling from above "Thou shalt use this scheme A and this scheme B" on the use of two schemes only. That fact, and the terminology used on the copied Do17 colours, point back to the options and terminology of Merrick's charts. That so far no aircraft type has been found with more than two options in use does not render them totally invalid, just that more information needs to be discovered as to their use. Or, as seems likely in the case of the mirror schemes, otherwise.

[Graham Boak]

Re the original subject: there is at least one photo of a Fi167 clearly in four uppersurface colours. I have seen different arguments for which. See Ullmann P97.

[Clint Mitchell]

I post again Primoz's comment copied verbatim:

"BTW, there are six combinations of three colors without any mirroring: 61/62/63, 62/63/61, 63/61/62, 61/63/62, 63/62/61, 62/61/63"

That to my understanding is a statement of fact. That infers that Primoz has successfully confirmed using his own research that there were 6 combinations of the scheme? Does it not?

Therefore I am quite well within my right to enquire if he can perhaps point out the evidence that has allowed him to make that statement.

"There is evidence for a number of different schemes"

Where?

"Thou shalt use this scheme A and this scheme B"

Why not? It's a standard RLM approved scheme for that aircraft type. Do you think the factories just made them up as they went along?

"That so far no aircraft type has been found with more than two options in use does not render them totally invalid."

I deal with evidence that is backed up photographically Graham. As I have already stated numerous times in this topic I am yet to find any evidence of more than two distinct pre-war schemes on the Hs123. That leads me to believe that there was no others for that type. If they did exist I have a large enough collection of photos for at least one to show up if there was 4 other mysterious schemes in use...

You mentioned privately:

"Luftwaffe He111P in distinctive scheme in Warplanes of the 3rd Reich p295"

I do not have this title on my bookshelf...

"It is in Merrick Classic Vol2 p321"

Do you mean 25-E33 of III./KG152?

"P297 shows it on a Romanian He111H-3."

Not in my copy it doesn't?

Allow me time to digest the other information, but I have the Hikoki edition of Ullmann's work and can find no reference to a Fi156 on page 97...

[Simon Schatz]

Interesting discussion!

Here is another pic of that plane.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Nr-13-Foto-PK...item463dc44fa1

1 and 3 are RLM 62 green
2 is RLM 61 Brown
4 is RLM 63 Grey

but have a closer look at the C24 marking.

At the top you see RLM 61 but the base of the letters was overpainted with 2 different colours. Maybe RLM 02 and RLM 70/71/62???

Cheers,

[Clint Mitchell]

Thank you Simon for posting the other postcard of this Ju87A.

Attachment 12186

It confirms at least on the photo under discussion that my initial colour attributions were correct:

Attachment 12187