Eagle Days: Life and Death for the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain

[richdlc]

I can’t add much to this except to say that Victoria is lovely, I’ve met her. She did a piece for Axis Wings, and she’s passionate. Like every historian though she’s always learning new information all the time, so might her opinions change over time? I don’t know.
And this might be a sweeping statement but I think men are much more anal about the minutiae than women. Don’t shoot me down in flames for saying that!

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by richdlc

I can’t add much to this except to say that Victoria is lovely, I’ve met her. She did a piece for Axis Wings, and she’s passionate. Like every historian though she’s always learning new information all the time, so might her opinions change over time? I don’t know.
And this might be a sweeping statement but I think men are much more anal about the minutiae than women. Don’t shoot me down in flames for saying that!

It's got nothing to do with the sexes. It's about finding out facts, and presenting them. She doesn't need any kind of apologia re minutiae. It's the lack of minutiae that has led people to believe that Dowding was sacked, and the Bf 110 pure fighter units needing Bf 109 escort in the BoB (yes, one of my pet peeves!).
And I would venture to suggest that every writer on the Battle of Britain is passionate about the subject. Show me one who isn't...

[Nick Beale]

John: Yes, sorry about the Stukas. Probably truer to say that they were withdrawn to conserve the force for close support during an invasion (ULTRA tells us that 1 September orders were issued to move seven Stuka Gruppen to airfields in the Pas de Calais region, none of them more than 60 km inland).
I'd differ with you a little over the Flak and RAF bombing of continental targets in that it was in reality a two-way war, not an absolutely clear-cut issue of Germans attacking, British defending. Again it's clear from ULTRA that the Germans were very jittery about the security of their airfields in the face of the bombing. Bombing of Germany itself diverted Zerstörer assets into the Nachtjagd Division.
As for the Nazism, the NSDAP's "national revolution" sought to transform (or in my terms morally corrupt) an entire people. One of "my" veterans, as decent, thoughtful and liberal-minded a man as you could ask for told me that in the 30s he and others had been enthused/carried away (»begeistert«) by the pace of developments in Germany. Party membership in 1939 was 5.3 million and kept on rising so it would be remarkable if there weren't a lot of card-carriers in the Luftwaffe. Plus, it's hard to fight for one's country without also fighting for the people in charge. There's more about Dr. Taylor's thesis here but it's not downloadable (although you can get her one on the Dams raids).

Chris: "New" or at least less-explored BoB sources might include the 3,000+ pages of ULTRA for 1940 (but I'm working on that); the 424 Air Ministry Daily W/T Intelligence Summaries up to the end of October 1940; the 899 CSDIC(UK) SRA reports up to 12 November; the 421 daily Western Front Sitreps to 31 October at TSAMO (complimenting BAMA's Luftflotte 3 daily reports); and (if you're so inclined) TSAMo's 2,226 files on »Seelöwe« + more on that subject in their OKW collection.

Rich: If you think women are less into minutiae you probably haven't lived with a patchwork quilter (let alone one whose professional specialism was blood cell morphology) but seriously, accuracy and historical enquiry go hand in hand, don't they?

[John Vasco]

Good post, Nick, and points well made.
However, the Nachtjagd was formed in June 1940 after some light incursions in the far north of Europe. See the chapter on the Nachtjagd in the book by myself and Peter Cornwell, 'Zerstörer, The Messerschmitt 110 and its units in 1940'. The formation of NJG 1 at the back end of June 1940 did not have a major impact on the daylight Battle of Britain.
And it is not in dispute that there were occasional raids on the Lw airfields in France.
As for the flak units, they had no influence over the day-to-day fighting over eastern/southern England during the Battle of Britain. For the life of me, I cannot understand how anyone can bring them into the equation of the Battle of Britain.
And I agree re 1930s Germany. Those young Lw flyers in 1940 had lived their teenage years in the Third Reich and been subject to the constant pressure/indoctrination of the regime.
As for this: '...Plus, it's hard to fight for one's country without also fighting for the people in charge...' I agree. As one ZG 26 pilot said under interrogation, 'My country, right or wrong'. Applies to combatants of all nations.
Good discussion, Nick.

[Chris Goss]

Thanks Nick I remain convinced these sources were used though and I know you are ploughing through them. Did she consult you? I would have thought my 2 books of accounts from German aircrew would or could have been of use but I was not contacted

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

Thanks Nick I remain convinced these sources were used though and I know you are ploughing through them. Did she consult you? I would have thought my 2 books of accounts from German aircrew would or could have been of use but I was not contacted

Absolutely, Chris.
When I get a copy of the book, it will be interesting to see who is referenced, and who has been contacted...

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

Thanks Nick I remain convinced these sources were used though

Most people (more sensible than me?) are content to rely on Hinsley's Official History rather than slog through thousands of actual messages, but we shall see next week when the book's out.

Did she consult you?

No, she didn't.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

Good post, Nick, and points well made.
However, the Nachtjagd was formed in June 1940 after some light incursions in the far north of Europe. See the chapter on the Nachtjagd in the book by myself and Peter Cornwell, 'Zerstörer, The Messerschmitt 110 and its units in 1940'. The formation of NJG 1 at the back end of June 1940 did not have a major impact on the daylight Battle of Britain.
And it is not in dispute that there were occasional raids on the Lw airfields in France.

Thank you John.

In case it's of interest, from ULTRA CX/JQ/93 (decrypt issued 29/6/40):

8. On 28/6 in answer to a call for volunteers for night fighters Fliegerkorps I sent in a nil return.

9. By order of Gen. Göring (28/6) I./ZG 1 (Düsseldorf) is in all haste to be used as a night fighter group. The heavy fighter groups of ZG 26 are at once to supply I./ZG 1 with one crew each (pilot and blind-flying W/T operator) capable of night flying, in exchange for a crew not so trained.

The raids on Luftwaffe bases may have been scattershot but they seem to have been very frequent and to have wound the Germans up a treat to judge from the decrypts.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Thank you John.

In case it's of interest, from ULTRA CX/JQ/93 (decrypt issued 29/6/40):

8. On 28/6 in answer to a call for volunteers for night fighters Fliegerkorps I sent in a nil return.

9. By order of Gen. Göring (28/6) I./ZG 1 (Düsseldorf) is in all haste to be used as a night fighter group. The heavy fighter groups of ZG 26 are at once to supply I./ZG 1 with one crew each (pilot and blind-flying W/T operator) capable of night flying, in exchange for a crew not so trained.

The raids on Luftwaffe bases may have been scattershot but they seem to have been very frequent and to have wound the Germans up a treat to judge from the decrypts.

Very interesting, Nick, and to illustrate the point of '9' above, an extract from the book I did with Peter C:
'...Typical of the more experienced Bordfunkers in Zerstörer units at this time, 20 year-old Rudolf Krause had already flown over 80 sorties before the opening of the Western offensive back in May. Posted to 3./ZG 26, with his pilot, Uffz. Engelbert Mail, Krause survived 22 war-flights during the fighting over France and was awarded the Iron Cross, 2nd Class, on 8th June. He transferred to the newly-formed 2./NJG 1 at Düsseldorf early in July where he flew a number of night sorties with Lt. Reese before teaming-up with Fw. Erich Puschnerus, who had requested a transfer back to day-fighters. They both transferred to 1./ZG 26 later that month and were on their fourth combat sortie together when shot down on 11th August. ..'
They were both KIA on 11th August.

[Nick Beale]

Re “Zerstörer”, I’ve had it since it came out!