Late war Bf 109 pictures source

[Nick Beale]

"JG 51 with it's foreseen Green-White-Green RV band or JG 52 with its foreseen Red-White-Red RV band."

According to a captured document, JG 52 was allocated red/white and JG 6 was given red/white/red. But Erik Mombeeck's new Luftwaffe Gallery No. 4 (which I haven't seen yet) has an article on III./JG 6 tail bands, illustrated by a Bf 109 with white/red bands.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Many thanks, Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945: Good to see the original documents for furthering our research, and thus we are all much indebted to your Ghostbomber website.

I do not yet have LuGa 4 and am looking forward to read Kees's article. The plane illustrated on the cover is Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 784938 "Grüne 1", Stab./JG 6, at Twenthe, Holland. An excellent case figure showing that JG 6 did implement the RV band designed for JG 52 ..and never so far seen on any of their machines. This underscores my error in post 554...

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Hi Marc,
Erla low visibility set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/

Maybe you forgot to include that one in: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4814 ?

Kees Mol JG 6 article in Lu/Ga 4: Thanks Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945 pointer.
Some one did read the said article (except me)?

Regards, Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Hi Marc,
Erla low visibility set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/

Maybe you forgot to include that one in: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4814 ?

Kees Mol JG 6 article in Lu/Ga 4: Thanks Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945 pointer.
Some one did read the said article (except me)?

Regards, Franck.

Franck, of course! I totally forgot about the K-4 Ferdinando found us.... thanks for reminding me!

[Cpt_Farrel]

Looking at the first picture (and what a great picture it is!) I would have guessed a JG300 aircraft transferred to II./JG52 as they used such a small II gruppe bar.

Then I look at Schwarze 6 and see that it's got the yellow bar as well and I'm not so sure anymore. I've never seen II./JG52 aircraft with markings in two colors. Besides the "6" is too large for II./JG52. So, a mystery indeed.

Even if it could be proven which unit these aircraft belonged to, I would still be very careful with assuming colors for the tailband as it was the end of the war and transfers from disbanded units would have been common.

Also, remember the ex-JG300 aircraft with the small black horizontal bar, is there perhaps something we don't understand yet regarding these markings/units?

Regarding the III./JG6 aircraft at Twenthe, Green 1 was from 12./JG6, not stab. .

Franck: The theory on III./JG6 from Kees Mol is that they used two bands White/Red rather than the prescribed Red/White/Red. There's a couple of photos and some Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports that supports that


One last thing, Marc, the W.Nr for Black 6, where does it come from? The wing camoflage does not look like WNF to me.

/Anders

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel

Looking at the first picture (and what a great picture it is!) I would have guessed a JG300 aircraft transferred to II./JG52 as they used such a small II gruppe bar.

Then I look at Schwarze 6 and see that it's got the yellow bar as well and I'm not so sure anymore. I've never seen II./JG52 aircraft with markings in two colors. Besides the "6" is too large for II./JG52. So, a mystery indeed.

Even if it could be proven which unit these aircraft belonged to, I would still be very careful with assuming colors for the tailband as it was the end of the war and transfers from disbanded units would have been common.

Also, remember the ex-JG300 aircraft with the small black horizontal bar, is there perhaps something we don't understand yet regarding these markings/units?

Regarding the III./JG6 aircraft at Twenthe, Green 1 was from 12./JG6, not stab. .

Franck: The theory on III./JG6 from Kees Mol is that they used two bands White/Red rather than the prescribed Red/White/Red. There's a couple of photos and some Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports that supports that


One last thing, Marc, the W.Nr for Black 6, where does it come from? The wing camoflage does not look like WNF to me.

/Anders

Thanks for your insight, Anders, especially the information on Kees's latest article in LuGa.

As for "Schwarze 6", the low and straight separation line camouflage on the fuselage added to the wavy scalloped line of the right wing leading edge are classic benchmarks for the WNF Diana-Tisnov production as shown here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461.
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 157 "Gelbe 66", NAGr. 3 (?), Köthen, April 1945. Source: internet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 293 "Gelbe 67", Rinkaby, 12 April 1945. Hitchcock 1977, p. 10.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 313 "Schwarze 3", Gatow, 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 188.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 61x xxx, II./JG 3, Garz, February 1945. Source: old ebay auction

Thanks and cheers
Marc

[Cpt_Farrel]

Those features could all be seen on Erla built G-10's too, but look at the spine, the lighter color is in the centre, with darker towards the tail and the canopy, on WNF aircraft there's a darker segment closer to the center of the spine with a lighter segment around the canopy. Sorry for the lack of example, can't get Flickr and Firefox to cooperate on my phone...

[ouidjat]

Anders, Flickr was down this afternoon.

[S Sheflin]

Hello everyone,

Regarding the Bf109G-10s with three-part RV bands and short II.Gruppe bars, correct me if I am wrong, but was not this question addressed and answered a year or so ago? As I recall it, the consensus at that time was that these distinctive Bf109G-10s were from JGr.300, and featured JG300’s blue/white/blue RV bands with short II./Gruppe bars.

On the question of Bodenplatte JG6 aircraft carrying red/white RV bands versus the proscribed white/red/white bands, after re-reading the appropriate CEA reports, it is my opinion that this is a case of misidentification. As an example, within the Crashed Enemy Aircraft (CEA) reports there are several where the personnel examining Bodenplatte Luftwaffe wrecks misidentified III.Gruppe bars as being parts of fuselage bands. In addition, CEA 264 contains a statement where they describe fuselage bands as being a, “white band outlined red.” Loss records show that this Bf109G-10 was from JG6. Since many of the aircraft involved were total wrecks, and the people examining them were working with small pieces, it is not surprising that misidentifications occurred.

Finally, as much as I know there are many who would wish it otherwise, I believe that JG52 and JG51 never operationally used their assigned RV bands.

Steve Sheflin

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Steve,

Thanks for your insight. your appreciation of the CEA Reports is especially interesting, taking into account what actually was left over of the crashed planes... This makes a lot of sense for the variety of bands configurations recorded.

Back to the Bf 109 G-10's seen on Rick Hawkinson's Flickr account. I respectfully disagree with the JGr. 300 theory, mainly because none of the planes seen do sport the short black II Gruppe bar as all the other 13 referenced pics of JGr 300 do:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7632486398923/

The Hawkinson pics do show destroyed machines their paints shining from being washed by the falling rain; the colors are thus vivid. That's how I come to the conclusion that the II Gruppe bars are yellow against the central white band; as for the outer darker RV Bands, be it bright green or bright red, I can't tell. One thing is sure though: their contrast is different from the pale blue used by JGr. 300.

One last point: the location of the Hawkinson pics: they were shot at Fels am Wagram, which never was a base for JG 300 or JGr. 300, but hosted II./JG 51 of which I so far never saw a single picture from their 1944-1945 machines...

To sum it up: more differences then convergences between the known JGr. 300 pictures and the Hawkinson Bf 109 G-10's...

Cheers
Marc