Late war Bf 109 pictures source

[ouidjat]

Hi Guys,

@As for II./JG 51 machines.
I think the only point to be clarified is when the 2nd Gruppe bar did change (if ever) from front cross position to back cross position. On Fels machine(s) the bar is obviously yellow (at least not white).

@As for "red outlined white band": why not?
So; we can suppose that concerning the following picture it has been described - if any report done - as "Yellow band outlined Red" comparing with "normal" RV bands. It's not a bit and pièces wreck yet we don't know the unit.
Without this photo in hands were we going to suppose it should have been "a case of misidentification"?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8055999427/in/set-72157625380126592/ (White 12).

@As for CEA 264.
Steve, the published page on Lu/Ga 4 is stating “The vertical band nearer the cockpit was painted red, whilst the aft band was painted white”.
Do you mean that Kees Mol didn’t have the whole report? Or that He did use only that page to prove his theory?
Did you read Kees Mol article? If yes, can you please use arguments written in this article with which you don’t agree?
Can you put a scan of the whole CEA 264 report or send me it in my mailbox please? It will be very helpful to make my own judgement.
Thanks very much for your kind help.

Regards, Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Hi Guys,

@As for II./JG 51 machines.
I think the only point to be clarified is when the 2nd Gruppe bar did change (if ever) from front cross position to back cross position. On Fels machine(s) the bar is obviously yellow (at least not white).

@As for "red outlined white band": why not?
So; we can suppose that concerning the following picture it has been described - if any report done - as "Yellow band outlined Red" comparing with "normal" RV bands. It's not a bit and pièces wreck yet we don't know the unit.
Without this photo in hands were we going to suppose it should have been "a case of misidentification"?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8055999427/in/set-72157625380126592/ (White 12).

@As for CEA 264.
Steve, the published page on Lu/Ga 4 is stating “The vertical band nearer the cockpit was painted red, whilst the aft band was painted white”.
Do you mean that Kees Mol didn’t have the whole report? Or that He did use only that page to prove his theory?
Did you read Kees Mol article? If yes, can you please use arguments written in this article with which you don’t agree?
Can you put a scan of the whole CEA 264 report or send me it in my mailbox please? It will be very helpful to make my own judgement.
Thanks very much for your kind help.

Regards, Franck.

Excellent point, Franck!

"Weisse 12" is still puzzling us, no clues so far...bar the fact this three colors RV Band is still unaccounted for. And that it isn't JG or JGr 300... Our documentation of those "odd" or unseen before RV markings slowly comes together. Let's keep it up!

Cheers
Marc



Cheers
Marc

[Cpt_Farrel]

I would have agreed with Steve regarding the JG6 bands until I read Mols article, but now that I have I think he's got a good case with proof not only in CEARs but at least one photo.

I don't believe the Fels am Wagram machines to be JG6 anyway so for this case it's of no consequence. I'd say aircraft from III or IV JG300 is possible as they had darker blue than I and II gruppe.

As an outside possibility, when II./JG51 ended up at Wagram maybe they did paint up their aircraft with Green-white-Green after all? There's no photographs that proves the contrary anyway. It's different with JG52 as there's good photographic evidence that they did not use the bands.

It would be quite risky to say the least, for someone to say "let's skip those I.d. markings, we're about to lose anyway"

/Anders

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Thanks Anders for your thoughts!

The different hue of blue for III. or IV. JG 300 is something new to me; I would love to known from where did you find that out?

I totally agree with your JG 52 assessment, that's why I narrow my thoughts on II./JG 51 until proven otherwise. One has to bear in mind that the pictures were taken at Fels am Wagram; this is not a known base for JG 6 nor JG 300...

Cheers
Marc

[Cpt_Farrel]

Regarding the bands of III and IV JG300, it was mentioned in Lorants work I think. It's visible in photos but there was also combat reports from US pilots mentioned. They reported having encountered fighters with black and white stripes when date and location showed they must have met III or IV JG300 aircraft (can't recall which).

/Anders

[ouidjat]

Hi Guys,

this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9892176736/

Beate? She is a woman then ... Who was she? A pilot?

Regards, Franck.

[ouidjat]

Beate Uhse-Köstlin Ah yes, I see ...

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi there Gang,

As a mean to clear collectively our ideas about Reichsverteidigung markings, I've just opened a new set collecting all identified late-war RV bands documented photographically:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635848261393/

Please note, the fine classification is not yet done; I also went only through the Mtt and Erla built Bf 109 G-14's; all the others remain yet to be added. So far 62 pics.
Keep tuned for the completed set. I cross my fingers this new approach will widen our collective understanding, building on Kees Mol's paper in LuGa 4;-))

Cheers
Marc

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Ok Gang,

Here we go with all the Reichsverteidigung markings I could find: owing to their evolution, I elected to separate them in two different sets, one for 1944 and one for 1945:

1. 1944 markings (64 pictures):
- JG 1: 1
- JG 3: 1
- JG 3: 16
- JG 4: 2
- JG 25: 1
- JG 27: 12
- JG 53: 3
- JG 300: 22
- JG 301: 3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635869726996/

2. 1945 markings (136 pictures)
- JG 4: 12
- JG 5: 12
- JG 6 (?): 1
- JG 27: 32
- JG 51 (?): 3
- JG 53: 37
- JG 300: 19
- JG 301: 6
- JG 6*: 7
- JG 77: 1
- KG (J) 27: 2
- EKG (J): 1
Unidentified: 4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635848261393/

Just by compiling those two sets, many issues become clear. One of the biggest is the proper identification of the units with three color bands: to tell between JG 4, 6, 51 (?) and 300 is difficult at best.... Please note thus that all the proposed identifications are the ones commonly admitted so far; many are certainly arguable, not a few plain wrong... Hoping that this formidable collective intelligence which is TOCH will help straighten many records;-))

Let's roll
Marc


*according to Kees Mol's latest article

[ChrisS]

Hi Marc

What a very useful list! Upon checking my collection I find a small 'fruit' for your labour from Luftwaffe SIG Norway website is a repeat of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 784 930 "Grüne 1", I./JG 77, Twenthe, Summer 1945.

Keep up the great work!

Chris