A 'what if' question RE: LW vs 8th AF

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

Hi Nokose,

What about the R4M rockets, though I don't think they entered service until late 44.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

More like March 1945 in the air-to-air role, I think but why wasn't such a weapon developed and deployed earlier — they weren't awfully hi-tech were they?

[MW Giles]

The RAF managed very well finding airfields deep in Germany in the dark at low level. Intruder operations were carried out from September 1940 right up to the end of the war and became progressively more and more effective and troublesome. As well as patroling and bombing known airfields the aircraft also shot up targets of opportunity on the way in and out.

The initial efforts were against Lw bomber airfields in France and the Low Countries, but as time went on the focus switched more to bomber support and airfields across Europe. Cats-eye sorties were the beginning but things really improved once radar was released for use over occupied territory. Go and have a look at histories of 23, 418 and 605 Sqns if you want a flavour of what happened, or the night fighter Sqns of 100 Group and Fighter Command in 44-5

Lw started well with NJG2 but lost the plot after that (honorable exception being KG51). Doubt they could have stopped the 8th, but why give them a free ride until they come over home territory? The British air defence system was good but Gisele shows that low fast a/c are hard to find and catch, I can only find three RAF Mosquito claims on the night of 3/4.03.45 over UK and North Sea. Interestingly the intruders claimed 3-0-4, including Fw190s at Ceske Bedezowice (now that what I call long range intruding)

Regards

Martin

[Andy Fletcher]

Thanks for the correction Nick, I should of checked the details first instead of trying to go from memory. You correct about them being low tech, if the Luftwaffe had gotten them in to service in large numbers even six months earlier they could have had a significant effect.

[mars]

Originally Posted by MW Giles

The RAF managed very well finding airfields deep in Germany in the dark at low level. Intruder operations were carried out from September 1940 right up to the end of the war and became progressively more and more effective and troublesome. As well as patroling and bombing known airfields the aircraft also shot up targets of opportunity on the way in and out.

The initial efforts were against Lw bomber airfields in France and the Low Countries, but as time went on the focus switched more to bomber support and airfields across Europe. Cats-eye sorties were the beginning but things really improved once radar was released for use over occupied territory. Go and have a look at histories of 23, 418 and 605 Sqns if you want a flavour of what happened, or the night fighter Sqns of 100 Group and Fighter Command in 44-5

Lw started well with NJG2 but lost the plot after that (honorable exception being KG51). Doubt they could have stopped the 8th, but why give them a free ride until they come over home territory? The British air defence system was good but Gisele shows that low fast a/c are hard to find and catch, I can only find three RAF Mosquito claims on the night of 3/4.03.45 over UK and North Sea. Interestingly the intruders claimed 3-0-4, including Fw190s at Ceske Bedezowice (now that what I call long range intruding)

Regards

Martin

Giles, I do not think those RAF night intruders flew all the way from their UK base at low level, they had to locate German airport, then went low and waiting to catch German aircrafts in the taking off or landing process Or even better, closing undetected to any German aircraft flying night mission and shooting them down, I believe RAF had the better airborne interception radar, and it was difficult for German ground radar system to catch those small number of the RAF night intruder especially in the night when RAF bomb command launched large scale of night bombing mission.
Another point is no matter how successful RAF night intruder missions was, those mission never achieve anything more than nuisance to the Luftwaffe night air defense, I cannot recall a single case when Luftwaffe night fighters failed to execute their mission because of RAF night intruders

[RT]

Concerning the rockets, the first ones were introduced operationaly to fight armoured vehicles 2 type used , R4M derivated from them, seems 3.0 cm MK were better to kill bombers , 3 "bullets" of MK108 were enought to bring down a heavy, german concentrate long on the cannon way , Me410 used to employ those weapons till 5.0 cm , but lack of "mise au point ", probably Galland made the story a bit to much exiting concerning the rockets , rockets suited maybe more the poor trained pilots of war end .
Mars hv to be quite right all these intruders missions only serve to oblige adversary to raise new defences .

Rémi

[Nokose]

Overall the 8th AAF would have kept coming but losses at their home airfields would have tied down more aircraft for defense. Heavier losses in the air would not have been good for bomber crews which might have forced a switch to night raids. Thus making it possible to send day fighters to the fronts.

[mars]

Nokose 8th AF USAAF did not involve night air defense over UK, US daytime fighters P-51s and P-47s were useless as night fighters anyway, so USAAF fighter groups would not be tied down a bit.

[MW Giles]

Mars

Kutscha asked you "So mars, how did the British manage to attack German airfields at night?" and you answered "Mass and repeat area bombing, night time bombing was not about accuracy in WWII era"

You seemed to be ignorant of the RAF intruder effort, and that it was purfectly possible to navigate to an airfield deep in Europe in the dark with 1940s technology, which is why I responded to remind you about RAF efforts.

You are only partially correct when you state that "Another point is no matter how successful RAF night intruder missions was, those mission never achieve anything more than nuisance to the Luftwaffe night air defense, I cannot recall a single case when Luftwaffe night fighters failed to execute their mission because of RAF night intruders". Obviously this ignores the ones that were shot down or crashed trying to land with an intruder lurking about. Moskitopanik may be over emphasised by some authors but there is some truth in it.

Lw was never going to stop the 8th AF from mid 1944, however a concerted intruder effort in 1943 and in particular at the time of Schweinfurt could well have paid dividends that ran through to D-Day. The knockout blow is a phallacy, it takes concerted application at all the enemy's weak points for a sustained period to achieve something - the Lw gave the 8th a free ride over England right from the start

MW Giles

[mars]

Giles, I basically agree what you said, my only point is though I never deny Luftwaffe night attack on USAA bases in 1933 could achieve some local success, but those success would be nothing but nuisance, it could never be anything even close to " paid dividends that ran through to D-Day".
By the way, Luftwaffe did launch a night time figher bomber operations to UK in 1943-1944, it failed miserably, you could read Chris Goss's Luftwaffe hit-and-run raiders: Nocturnal Figher-Bomber Operations over the Western Front, 1943-1945"

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by mars

Giles, I basically agree what you said, my only point is though I never deny Luftwaffe night attack on USAA bases in 1933 could achieve some local success, but those success would be nothing but nuisance, it could never be anything even close to " paid dividends that ran through to D-Day".
By the way, Luftwaffe did launch a night time figher bomber operations to UK in 1943-1944, it failed miserably, you could read Chris Goss's Luftwaffe hit-and-run raiders: Nocturnal Figher-Bomber Operations over the Western Front, 1943-1945"

If the hypothetical LW intruder raids were made to US airfields in East Anglia and actually achieve any successes they would have affected 8th (and 9th AF) operational processes for fuel and bomb loading - setting timetables back to initiate such stages in the Ops plan until daylight air defenses were deployed.

That alone would have significant impact regarding operational windows for deep penetrations IF the early evening intruder raids were also continued.

There are two factors involved with success/failure of LW night incursions. First and foremeost is navigation - likely drawing on LW bomber pilot allocation, or pick from Wilde Sau units. Second - tactics and training.

There is no eveidence that the LW seriously considered the potential impact to 8th AF Operations or they would have decided to develop and execute plans to try this. Risk/Reward potential was very high unless and until the LW considered that resources so deployed would be much more impactful than intruder missions on Britain based airfields..and what would that be?

The LW achieved an excellent result on April 22, 1994 - and never repeated the tactic on US returning bombers or airfields in Britain, the excellent success at Polatava in June 1944 - and never repeated the attack on the US airbases in Ukraine.