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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#51
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Re: Hans Hahn
08 Jul 1941 Circus 40 to Lille power station
Escort cover 303 Sqn Spitfire S/L T.A. Arentowicz (KIA) over Dunkirk Spitfire F/O W.S. Strzembosz (KIA) over Dunkirk Spitfire Sgt W. Giermer (WIA) over Dunkirk and returned damaged. These possibly belong to 1/JG 26 Uffz Ulrich Grebe Spitfire 15:40 SE of Dunkirk & Spitfire 15:45 N of Dunkirk Oblt. Werner Kakse Spitfire 15:45 20 km NNW of Coxyde RAF losses (other) 308 Sqn Spitire Sgt J. Biel (POW) over Lille 611 Sqn Spitfire Sgt B.W. Feeley (KIA) target support 145 Sqn Spitire P/O P.R.I. Pine (POW) target support 145 Sqn Spitfire F/O J.J. Machacek (KIA) target support 610 Sqn Spitfire P/O J.R. Stoop (WIA) came down in sea & rescued 610 Sqn Spitfire P/O F.G. Horner (POW) over France 603 Sqn Spitfire Sgt. B.H. Wood target support damaged forced landed near Canterbury and burnt out German claims: Oblt Josef Priller 1/JG 26 Spitfire 15:30 N of St. Omer Uffz Hans-Jürgen Fröhlich 2/JG 26 Spitfire 15:50 NE of Calais Lt Paul Schauder 3/JG 26 Spitfire 15:50 NE of Graveslines Hptm Walter Adolp Stab II/JG 26 Spitfire 15:30 Graveslines Obfw Walter Meyer 6/JG 26 Spitfire 15:40 Hazebrouck Uffz Karl Finke 6/JG 26 Spitfire unk hrs S of Ypern Lt Siegfried Schnell 9/JG 2 Spitfire 15:45 SW of Bergus Obfw Magnus Brunkhorst 9/JG 2 Spitfire 15:48 Unk Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 15:52 Calais-Marck Without better information on crash locations I can't determine who shot down who but the majority appear to be to JG 26. Where and who engaged the 603 and 610 Sqn Spitfire would also have to be determined. |
#52
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Re: Hans Hahn
10 Jul 1941 Circus 41 Chocques
Still not enough details of how everything took place but the "overclaiming" was not that bad. Still not possible to link except maybe one. RAF losses 72 Sqn High Cover Spitfire Sgt A.J. Casey (KIA) Spitfire Sgt C.L. Harrison (KIA) Spitfire F/O J.M. Godlewski (KIA) Spitfire (damaged) 92 Sqn High Cover Spitfire Sgt Walden (rescued at sea. This was possibly by Josef Priller) 611 Sqn Spitfire F/Sgt L. Hemingway (KIA) Spitfire (damaged) Spitfire (damaged) Spitfire (damaged) 610 Sqn Target Support Spitfire Sgt HCD Blackman (KIA buried at Mazieres) Spitfire Sgt JE Anderson (POW) Spitfire P/O P. Ward-Smith (POW) Spitfire (damaged) German claims Stab-Fw Franz Willinger Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 NW St Omer b. Watten Fw Günther Seeger Stab/JG2 Spitfire 12:15 SE of Cassel Obfw Kurt Bühligen 4/JG 2 Spitfire 12:18 & Spitfire 12:21 Unk locations Lt. Erich Rudorffer Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 12:20 Unk location Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 12:08 & Spitfire 12:12 Unk location Oblt Josef Priller 1/JG 26 Spitfire 12:30 N of St Omer & Spitfire 12:40 NW of Boulogne (The last possibly 92 Sqn because he went down in the channel but still nothing to truely confirm) Lt. Robert Unzeitig 1/JG 26 Spitfire 12:43 Cape Griz Nez Eight Spitfires lost and five Spitfires damaged against 10 claims is fairly good but still can't determine which Hahn ecountered. |
#53
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Re: Hans Hahn
21 Jul 1941 Circus 54 to Lille
RAF losses 602 sqn close-escort wing Spitfire F/Lt T.G.F. Ritchie (KIA) buried Reningelst, Belgium 609 Sgn escort-cover wing Spitfire Sgt K.W. Bramble (KIA) near Lille 611 Sqn Spitfire Sgt W.E. Grainger (KIA) near Lille None listed as damaged German claims (the first three match Circus 54 losses) Hptm Johannes Seihert Stab I/JG 26 Spitfire 08:25 SW of Ypres Oblt Waldemar März 5/JG 26 Spitfire 08:35 W of Lille Uffz Fritz Schellbach 7/JG 2 Spitfire 08:35 Unk Not matching RAF losses (these appear to be the withdrawn) Oblt Sigmund Kahse 1/JG 26 Spitfire 08:40 15 km Calais rtg Dunkirk Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 08:50 unk Lt Egon Mayer 7/JG 2 Spitfire 08:52 Unk |
#54
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Re: Hans Hahn
21 Jul 1941 Circus 55 Marzingarbe
RAF losses 616 Sqn Spitfire Sgt S.W.R. Mabbett (MWIA) near St. Omer Spitfire Sgt F.A. Nelson (KIA) into the sea off worthing 19 Sqn Sweep Spitfire F/O H. Oxlin (KIA) near Montreuil Spitfire P/O M.D. Tucker (KIA) near St Omer Spitfire Sgt S.F. Brooker (WIA) damaged German claims Fw Günther Seeger Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 20:45 unk Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 20:45 Uffz Gottfried Dietze 2/JG 26 Spitfire 21:00 SW of Cape Gris Nez Oblt. Schmid /JG 26 Spitfire 19:00(?) unk location (not on the 21st but the 22nd) Actually matching. Not sure on the time for Oblt. Schmid. Last edited by Nokose; 19th June 2016 at 01:14. Reason: Correction Oblt Schmid's was actually on the 22nd July 1941 |
#55
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Re: Hans Hahn
22 Jul 1941 Circus 58
RAF losses; 54 Sqn Spitfire P/O Jones (POW) 308 Sqn Spitfire F/O W. Boszek (KIA) and Spitfire P/O M.M. Orzechowski (KIA) 603 Sqn Spitfire P/O P.J. Delrome (KIFA) possible Oxygen failure German Claims Oblt. Josef Priller 1/JG 26 Spitfire 13:40 10 km west of Gravelines (It is widely accepted that he shot down one of the 308 Sqn Spitfires). Stab-Fw. Erwin Kley 1/JG 2 Spitfire 13:33 no location Uffz Kuno Dollenmeier 2/JG 2 Spitfire 13:40 " " Hptm. Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 13:45 " " Spitfire 13:53 " " Oblt. Rudolf Planz Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 14:01 " " Uffz Theodor Zingerle 8/JG 2 Spitfire 14:02 Okay, two Spitfires with seven claims by JG 2. Either Hahn shot down both, shared or his victims escaped but I think it probably fell into the shared as a group status to be fair. |
#56
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Re: Hans Hahn
07 Aug 1941 Circus 62 to Lille
RAF losses 308 Sqn Sweep 17:01-18:42 Spitfire P/O L. Stampel or Stapel (KIA) Spitfire Sgt S. Brazda (KIA) Buried Longuenesse which is northeast of Fruges. 92 Sqn Circus 62 Spitfire Sgt G.P. Hickman (WIFA) on return with battle damage. Area of dogfight at Gravelines. 41 Sn Spitfire F/Lt G.G.F. Draper (POW) over Lille but bailed out over Merville(?). 610 Sqn Spitfire Sgt F. McWatt (WIA) damaged 401 Sqn Hurricane P/O R.T. Coupland (KIA) buried at Dunkirk 19 Sqn Spitfire P/O H.B. Milman (MWIFA) on return Spitfire Sgt S Plazak (KIA) 257 Sqn Hurricane Sgt Cowan (WIA) damaged German claims JG 26 ObsLt Adolf Galland Stab Spitfire 17:40 10 km west of St Omer Oblt Johannes Schmid Stab Spitfire 17:43 St. Omer - Ardes Hptm Gerhard Schöpfel Stab III Spitfire 18:00 SW of Dunkirk (possibly 401 Sqn Hurricane) Oblt. Walter Schneider 6/JG 26 Spitfire or Hurricane(Don Caldweel lists latter) 18:05 Gravelines (possibly 92 Spitfire?) Oblt Josef Haiböck Stab III Spitfire 18:05 near Boulogne Oblt Josef Priller 1/JG 26 18:20 8 km west of Calais JG 2 Obfw Josef Wurmheller 4/JG 2 Spitfire 17:47 no location Obfw Kurt Büligen 4/JG 2 Spitfire 17:48 no location Obfw. Wolfgang Wehrhagen 4/JG 2 Spitfire 17:55 no location Fw. Ludwig Spinner 4/JG 2 Spitfire 18:09 near Fruges (I suspect that he probably shot down 308 Sqn Spitfire of Sgt S. Bruzda) Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III Spitfire 18:17 no location on Tony Woods list but Nick has Calais on his list on page 1 of this thread. So four Spitfires shot down and two damaged. One Hurricane shot down and one damaged. I suspect the 41 Sqn Spitfire probably was shot down by one of II/JG 2 or maybe a shared kill. Hahn's victory will probably remain a mystery on this one. |
#57
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Re: Hans Hahn
12 Aug 1941
Starting this day out before Hahn's claims to clear up the losses of the 41 Sqn during this day. 41 Sqn near Hazebrouck Spitfire Sgt A.L. Bull (POW) Spitfire Sgt R.L. Chapman German Claims Maj. Walter Oesau Stab/JG 2 Hurricane 11:43 no location Fw Günther Seeger Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 11:45 10 km NNW of Calais Lt. Arthur Beese Stab III/JG 26 Spitfire 11:50 Seeger's location clearly puts him out of these losses. Donald Caldwell's JG 26 puts them out of the claiming in France regarding the RAF circus missions. Circus 69 area of St Omer 09:48- RAF losses 54 Sqn Spitfire P/O R. Powling (WIA) damaged St. Omer 222 Sqn Spitfire P/O Christie (KIA) St. Omer Circus 70 Gosnay 11:03- RAF losses 485 Sqn Spitfire Sgt Russel (POW) Gosnay Spitfire damaged 602 Sqn Spitfire Sgt H.J. Bell-Walker (POW) Spitfire damaged German claims have no locations listed Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 12:45 and Spitfire 12:50 Uffz Ernst Federle 8/JG 2 Spitfire 12:46 Maj. Walter Oesau Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 12:50 Spitfire 12:54 Spitfire 13:06 Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 12:54 and Spitfire 13:08 So for three Spitfires shot down and two damaged against eight claimed there appears to be a number of shared, especially on looking at the times and there being no locations to check against. Circus 71 Le Trait shipyards 17:29- RAF losses 485 Sqn Spitfire Sgt G.M Porter (KIA) Rouen, France 611 Sqn Spitfire P/O R. van der Honert (WIA) damged German claims Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 18:51 Ramsgate Oblt Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 19:28 12 km SE of Dungeness Maj Walter Oesau Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 19:27 15 km S of Dungeness Obfw. Kurt Bühligen Stab II/JG 2 Hurricane 19:07 no location I think that Bühligen is the possible victor over the 485 Sqn fighter as Hahn and the others are clearly off the coast of England. |
#58
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Re: Hans Hahn
20 Sep 1941
Thanks to Donald Caldwell's JG 26 series it was possible to separate the three raids for this day. Circus 100A to the Hazebrouck motor yards fell to JG 26 and Circus 100C to the Rouen Shipyards fell to Jagdfliergerschule 5 Ergänzungsstaffel which claimed three Spitfires (Actually no RAF losses). That leaves JG 2 handling Circus 100B to the Abbeville motor yards. RAF losses 92 Sqn Spitfire Sgt G.P. Hickman (POW) 452 Sqn Spitfire Sgt I.A.L. Milne (POW) 602 Sqn Spitfire Sgt C.J. Squibb (KIA) and Spitfire Sgt. W.L. Brown (KIA) Four Spitfires with no location and times of loss. German claims Oblt. Josef Puchinger Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 16:36 Lt. Egon Mayer 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:38 Oblt Rudolf Planz Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 16:40 Obfw Günther Seeger Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 16:41 bei Somme-Mündung Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 16:42 10 km SW of Somme-Mündung Spitfire 16:43 Lt Walter Höhler 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:42 Hptm Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 16:50 Fw Horst-Benno Krüger Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 16:53 Lt Wolfgang Wehrhagen 4/JG 2 Spitfire 16:55 Lt Erich Rudrffer 6/JG 2 Spitfire 16:55 Uffz Richard Übelbacher 6/JG 2 Spitfire 16:55 Fw Paul Marx 4/JG 2 Spitfire 17:05 So thirteen claims for four Spitfires and no known damaged. Again on looking at the times it could appear that some "might" have been shared instead of actual single victories but Hahn actually gaining two seems a little hard to determine as possible. Nick, Tony Woods list does not show a Spitfire for 16:30 which would put him in even a more bad light for this day. |
#59
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Re: Hans Hahn
Hi Michael,
Thanks for all these assessments, it's been a big help to have a second opinion on Hahn's victims and overclaims. Incidentally, Ian Milne was the "local" Spifire pilot where I came from and if it helps, I long ago determined that if he was a victim of a famous ace, then he was more likely downed by Rudorffer than Hahn. Nick |
#60
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Re: Hans Hahn
27 Sep 1941 Circus 103A Ameins motor yard
I looked at the losses for this raid and in the accessment it states there were four losses but I only saw three listed. RAF losses Escort-Support Wing 129 Sqn Spitfire Sgt. Ross (POW) Pas-de-Calais 616 Sqn Spitfire P/O R.G. Sutherland (KIA) Gamaches/Somme High Cover Wing 308 Sqn Spitfire Sgt E. Watolski (POW) one unknown German claims Hptm Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 15:30 Le Touquet Fw Horst-Benno Krüger Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 15:30 Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Lt Erich Rudorffer 6/JG 2 Spitfire 15:40 Lt Jakob Augustin 8/JG 2 Spitfire 15:55 Obfw Rudolf Krull 7/JG 2 Spifire 16:43 (after the raid was over) So five pilots claiming five (three known as of this post but possibly four) isn't bad. Strange the timing of the Stab II claims. To be fair for two battle damaged forced landings by JG 2 the RAF claimed for Circus 103A seven Bf 109 shot down, two damaged and three proables so not all one sided in these exchanges. |
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