1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova

[Rabe Anton]

Matti et al,

I have followed with interest and appreciation the postings concerning the crash of a Ju 52/3mg8e into high ground near Orsova, Roumania, on 10.05.44.

My interest centers on the particular Ju 52/3m involved in the mishap. Matti has offered the WNr. 501 326 for the airplane. BA-MA 9/77, Entry 334, however, records 501 325. Can we get a verification or clarification as to correct Werknummer? And, in connection with this, what can be said about the Stammkennzeichen?

RA

[Dénes Bernád]

Hello Rabe von Alabama,
501 325 was PO+GO, while 501 326, not surprisingly, PO+GP.

[egbert]

Sigh - so Matti with WAST information says for 10.5.44 WNr. 501326, PO+GO

others say WNr 501 325 was PO+GO, while 501 326, not surprisingly, PO+GP

Which WNr was it infact 501325 or 501326 that crashed and which identifyer GO or GP please? I am puzzled please help me get back on track.

[Matti Salonen]

Gentlemen,

For the time being I have in my database based on the NVMs:
16.4.1944 crash 501325. No SKZ was given.
10.5.1944 crash 501326 and SKZ PO+GO, which seems to be a wrong combination.
I will be in March in Berlin and will then check whether I have made a typo or what. Before that I cannot do anything.
Of course I have to check then also 3225, PH+OI, which was given by "Gerd 190" for the crash on 10.5.1944.
Patience for a while.

Matti

[egbert]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

Gentlemen,

For the time being I have in my database based on the NVMs:
16.4.1944 crash 501325. No SKZ was given.
10.5.1944 crash 501326 and SKZ PO+GO, which seems to be a wrong combination.
I will be in March in Berlin and will then check whether I have made a typo or what. Before that I cannot do anything.
Of course I have to check then also 3225, PH+OI, which was given by "Gerd 190" for the crash on 10.5.1944.
Patience for a while.

Matti

Right on Matti. Have a great time in Berlin and please report back on what you found for 10.5.44

[red-star25]

The c/n 3225 comes from a report in the KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. May 1944:
10.05.44 Kurierstaffel OKM Berlin-Staaken, 9km NNW Toplet (PQ 2518 East 24, Height 1051, Kampfauftrag (Fighting order), crash on the ground, fire after impact, not observed by enemy, Ju 52 c/n 3225, marking: PH+OI, 100%, dead:
O.F. Brunnhaber (F), O.F. Kunkel (BF), Kptltn. Rosenbaum U-Flottille Schwarzmeer and 7 other passengers (name, rank etc. unknown)
wounded: Uffz. Strichling (BW) and 6 passengers (name, rank etc. unknown)
In another file, there is a report from Standortkdtr. Orsova , dated 25.07.1944 asking for the date of burial and the location of the graves for the soldiers from the crash on 10.05.1944 6km southwest Toplez with Ju 52 PH+OJ.
It also ask, if a Uffz. Griesmeier was amoung the ones buried.
The c/n 501325 comes from the salvage report mentioned by Rabe.
The crash location is given as Topleti, 10 km north Orsova, Punka Culmea-Neagra (handwriting not easy to read), due to low cloud level crash with ground and caught fire on impact, unit: OKM Berlin, salvage by 2/2 started
06.06.1944, parts were send to S.u.L. Stelle Wiener Neustadt, 8 dead, 10 severe wounded, 1 slightly wounded.
So even the primary documents gives different informations about the crash.
Regards

Dirk

[egbert]

Dirk great information, also for your off-line infos!. Thanks again.

Now with that information , especially with the location of the crash to be grid square 2518 Ost (East) 24, I ask if anybody has a Luftwaffe grid square map for the exact identification of the crash location please?
The online converter by hurley offers for 24 Ost and 25xx this grid square. But where is (25) 18 within these squares?

[egbert]

Could it be this?????

[Matti Salonen]

Some news:

Information from ”Gerd 190” seems to be correct. The original NVM Nr. 8 of Kurierstaffel O.K.M. (Berichtzeitraum 25 März – 22 Mai 1944) at WASt has no info on the aircraft WNr. or SKZ. It contains only information on the crew of three but no info on the passengers. Therefore my previously given WNr. was incorrect and 501326 should not be connected to this crash. My apologies!.

According to my present understanding this loss is as follows:

1944-05-10, Kurierstaffel O.K.M., Ju 52/3m, 3225, PH+OI, Höhe 1051, 9 km nordnordwestlich Toplet bei Orsova, Absturz infolge Bodenberührung. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, +
Bordfunker Ofw Kunkel, Josef, +
Bordwart Uffz Striebing, Willi, verletzt (Am 1944-05-20 seinen Verletzungen erlegen)
Fluggast Olt Schörp, +
Fluggast Kapitänleutnant (Flotillenchef) Rosenbaum, Helmut, +
Fluggast Marine-Baurat Heger, +
Fluggast Lt Drüner, +
Fluggast Maj Diederichs, +
Fluggast Stabsobemaschinist Dany, +
Fluggast Olt.z.S. Mertineit, verletzt
Fluggast A, +
Fluggast B, verletzt
Fluggast C, verletzt
Fluggast D, verletzt
Fluggast E, verletzt
Fluggast F, verletzt
Fluggast G, verletzt

Still open questions:
”Researcher111” in his msg 17 says, that there were 15 passengers and 2 pilots, total 17. However, there was actually a crew of 3, which leaves 14 for passengers. Also he says, that a total of 10 soldiers perished in the crash including two crew members. ”muggs ro” gives in his msg 46 from a DLM crash report 8 dead and 10 wounded, which contradicts with the previous info. ”red-star25” in his message 56 quotes 8 dead, 10 severe wounded and 1 lightly wounded. Again not quite consistent with the previous info.

Can anybody confirm the number of the passengers, their names and their fate?

Another problem was the crash of 16 April 1944

The original NVM Nr. 38 of III/TG 4, (Berichtzeitraum 7.4. – 17.4.1944) at WASt has no info on the aircraft WNr. or SKZ. It contains only information on the crew but no info on the passengers. With a pen somebody has added ”Ju 52, 501325”, which obviously was taken from the GQM report. This loss is dated 16 April 1944.

The same NVM contains also information on the crew of a loss on 17 April 1944 32 km südlich Orsova. Again, this NVM has no info on the aircraft or passengers.

The original NVM Nr. 30 of IV/JG 54 (Berichtzeitraum 16.4.1944) at WASt has information on three pilots, but no info on the aircraft. With a pen somebody has added ”Flogen mit III/TG 4, Ju 52, 501325”, which obviously was taken from the GQM report.

The original NVM Nr. 31 of IV/JG 54 (Berichtzeitraum 16.4.1944) at WASt has information on 9 technical persons of IV/JG 54 who were killed 9 km west from Orsowa. There is no info on the aircraft, but based on the loss location, it should be 501325

The original NVM Nr. 32 of IV/JG 54 (Berichtzeitraum 16.4.1944) at WASt has information on 12 technical persons of IV/JG 54 who were killed 32 km from Orsowa at eisernen Tor. There is no info on the aircraft.

”egbert” in his msg 29 wrote the following quote ”Another 16 men came to death on 17 April 1944 when the Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501132 1Z+JX of 11./TG 4 was hit by Allied escort fighters and ditched on the Danube river in an attempted emergency landing some 32 km South of Orsava."

By combining this with the previous information, we have the following losses:

1944-04-16, 9./TG 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, 501325, Bei Toplitz, 9 km westlich Orsowa, am Eisernen Tor, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Hebstreit, Ludwig, +
Bordfunker Uffz Kürschner, Heinz, +
Bordwart Uffz Scharinger, Josef, +
Bordschütze Uffz Kupczak, Albin, +
Fluggast Uffz Elbinger, Johannes, +
Fluggast Ogfr Gravogel, Franz, +
Fluggast Uffz Grimm, Alfred, +
Fluggast Uffz Hey, Walter, +
Fluggast Uffz Marx, Fritz, +
Fluggast Uffz Neger, Hubert, +
Fluggast Gefr Nonn, Helmut, +
Fluggast Gefr Siemon, Edmund, +
Fluggast Uffz Trafoyer, Kurt, +
Fluggast Gefr Treutel, Robert, +
Fluggast Gefr Urban, Heinz, +
Fluggast Fw Wilkens, Hartmut, +

1944-04-16 oder 1944-04-17, 11./TG 4, Ju 52/3m, 501132, 1Z+JX, 32 km südlich Orsowa, Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Dieterle, Hans, +
Bordfunker Fw Müller, Walter, +
Bordwart Uffz Neiteler, Albert, +
Bordschütze Gefr Tatzel, August, +
Fluggast Gefr Barka, Vinzent, +
Fluggast Flg Dippner, Heinz, +
Fluggast Fw Eichinger, Franz, +
Fluggast Fw Gehre, Hermann, +
Fluggast Ogfr Hausotter, Rudolf, +
Fluggast Gefr Hofmann, Horst, +
Fluggast Gefr Nass, Joachim, +
Fluggast Uffz Neufang, Servatius, +
Fluggast Ofw Stamm, Anton, +
Fluggast Ogfr Wichern, Otto, +
Fluggast Ogfr Wolff, Günther, +
Fluggast Ogfr Ziegler, Friedrich, +

Question: Which date is correct for the last loss: 1944-04-16 of 1944-04-17?

Hope that the facts will finally be revealed.

Matti

[researcher111]

Matti

Thanks for the update. I think this final update matches more or less both events .

My info was taken from Major Rudy Klemm JG 54 war diaries which were left to me
by him prior his fatal aircraft accident here near Swiss border many years ago.

According his diary a total of 17 persons were on board of Ju 52/3m, 3225, PH+OI and
I have no way to explain the slight discrepancies between his records your update
and the other posts on here .

On his diary there is nothing mentioned about a Bordwart ( flight attendant )
but a gunner who died due injuries later on while Klemm put the accent on
Oberleutnant zur See Mertineit and Kapitänleutnant Rosenbaum fates which
as far as I am concerned the last may have been higher ranked upon his death
than Kaleu (Major ) coze Flottilenchef is normally higher ranked, though I may be wrong.

As into the crashes of 1944-04-16, 9./TG 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, 501325 and 11./TG 4, Ju 52/3m,
501132, 1Z+JX 1944-04-17, this is what I can say :

On April 17 , 44 two JU-52 were shot down by 82nd FG escorting 5th BG to the Yugoslav coast
and back, how these P-38's arrived as far as Orsova Romania if indeed they did, it remains a mistery
because was far off course .

On April 16,44 1st and 82nd FG's were escorting bombers to Turnul Severin which
is kind of near to Orosva , 3 enemy bombers were claimed by both FG's and I have
hard time to believe that the "little friends " pilots confused JU-52's with enemy
bombers .

This all I know