Battle of Britain Bf109E found in India a few years ago?

[paulmcmillan]

Wasn't there supposed to be a in-situ 'crash' photo of Xavier Ray's aircraft around - Maybe in a private collection- I have cetainly heard claim that a photo does exist

Also to determine the side number prehaps an X-Ray would help :-)

[PeterA]

Starboard


Port


Larry,

5 over 6.....6 over 5?

I have swayed backward and forward on this for a couple of hours.

Some elements suggest one, other elements the other. Clearly side to side variation over 50 plus years of exposure to the elements is evident as is, to some extent, the angle of attack to the sun due to the fuselage curvature.

There seems to be a chemical etching effect on the base finish as seen with the 8 and that has started to appear on the upper half of the 6 on the starboard side. These etch or witness marks reveal the true stroke dimension of the numerals, wider than you might first interpret due to the single paint thickness white outline being almost totally eroded.

I have made the assumption that both the 5 & 6 numerals have been painted on as firstly a coat of white at full dimension followed by a coat of black at under dimension to give a 10-15mm white border.

The puzzle, if the 6 was the last applied numeral, is why there should be quite that amount black in the area of the pink arrow, an area than can only be part of the 6. The visible white in this area has been protected by the black before eventually showing through. The unprotected border white in this area has totally eroded by virtue of the known stroke width.

If we consider the top half of the 5 in the port view, the area I have dotted with bright green spots. I believe we are seeing strong black here because the 5 has been locally protected by two coats of the radial stroke of the 6, yet has faded on the outer elements of the top horizontal, where it has not protected by the 6.

I believe in the port view that the last vestiges of white radial stroke from the 6 on the strong vertical black of the 5 could only mean that the 6 was applied over the 5.

So Larry, a cautionary 'Black 6' when it fell into British hands and confirming your reports.

Peter

[RolandF]

Maybe I don´t get it right but there´s one mistake in evidence imho.

From profession I know a bit about colour layers on medieval facades, medieval ceilings, staircases etc. Same goes with archeological layers and strata. So the most upper layer is the youngest, the most lower the oldest, alright?

Exposed to weathering the most recent layers disappear first, finally leaving only "shadows" or chemical reaction zones, as I´ve understood. The younger layers protect the older layers by creating protective covers, okay?

The number which is preserved least of all is "8", and imho nothing contradicts the assumption this must be the most recent colour application. On the starboard side there is even a small portion of the upper part of "black 6" protected by the upper circle of "8" imo.

Looking at the starboard photograph, within the two circles of the "8" remnants of red colour on white primary coat appear close to the overlapping duraluminum panels. Obviously enough overlapping to protect thosesmall traces of paint.

Now I ask myself - shouldn´t be a "Red 8" the final tactical number? And how is this connected with the red disc?

Nobody has made statements about the fuselage Balkenkreuz. It seems to me that a narrow pre-war cross si superseded by the standard later cross. Maybe even with attempts to reduce the white portions of the Balkenkreuz. And what are those grey areas beside the numbers? Afaik the Balkenkreuz on the Bf 109 moved further aft during the last prewar months.

Regards

Roland

[ChrisS]

I guess the red dot in one of Peter's excellent pictures corresponds to a similar device on the then, Hptm Hannes Trautloft's Bf 109 E-1 W.Nr. 4027?

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by RolandF

Maybe I don´t get it right but there´s one mistake in evidence imho.

From profession I know a bit about colour layers on medieval facades, medieval ceilings, staircases etc. Same goes with archeological layers and strata. So the most upper layer is the youngest, the most lower the oldest, alright?

Exposed to weathering the most recent layers disappear first, finally leaving only "shadows" or chemical reaction zones, as I´ve understood. The younger layers protect the older layers by creating protective covers, okay?

The number which is preserved least of all is "8", and imho nothing contradicts the assumption this must be the most recent colour application. On the starboard side there is even a small portion of the upper part of "black 6" protected by the upper circle of "8" imo.

Looking at the starboard photograph, within the two circles of the "8" remnants of red colour on white primary coat appear close to the overlapping duraluminum panels. Obviously enough overlapping to protect thosesmall traces of paint.

Now I ask myself - shouldn´t be a "Red 8" the final tactical number? And how is this connected with the red disc?

Nobody has made statements about the fuselage Balkenkreuz. It seems to me that a narrow pre-war cross si superseded by the standard later cross. Maybe even with attempts to reduce the white portions of the Balkenkreuz. And what are those grey areas beside the numbers? Afaik the Balkenkreuz on the Bf 109 moved further aft during the last prewar months.

Regards

Roland

Roland,

You may well be correct.

All I can say is that if the 8, of whatever colour, was on top there is no evidence that I can see, at high resolution, the shows that it in any way protected the lower 5 & 6.

You experts will tell me what that little triangle is for. It seems to have a proportional relationship with the 8 but not with the 5 & 6.

Here is a close up of the triangle. I see triangle paint on the base coat but none on the black of the horizontal on the 5. I believe I see a faint witness mark of the of the base of the triangle on the black which I think is the sharp break line caused by the masking tape that produced the triangle.

In my judgement the triangle is below the 5.

Interesting stuff.

PeterA

[Andy Saunders]

Peter

The yellow triangle is the fuel octane marker and would have been extant on all 109's of the period. It was not uncommon for the numerals or other markings to partly obscure or overlap them. As far as I'm aware, the triangle would have been present on the airframe from factory. Thus, its existence on the fuselage would pre-date all the numerals.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

This would all be solved by one contemporary photo of this aircraft. Is there any chance of any of our board readers from India finding such a thing in the Indian press or photo archives? This one has to have been photographed many, many times over the years.

Regards,

[stephen f. polyak]

Here at least is one variation of the fuel filler/octane triangle marker. This too is a yellow center with white border; a hand-applied octane rating of '87' finishes the device. Of course, there were assorted variations on this general theme.

Andy, I'm working on that data plate question . . .

[PeterA]

8...above or below the 5/6?



On Spitfires we know that original instructional stencils get lost in the subsequent refinishing of camouflage and markings.

If the fuel triangle is an original application, and assuming that the 5 was the first numeral applied, is it logical that in positioning and laying out this numeral for spraying, the painter would partially cover the triangle? No pride in workmanship there for the want of just dropping it down a few millimetres.

Would any 109 aficionados have any images where that was the case?

More logical that the 8 was the first application, positioned harmoniously with the triangle and that latterly the whole area including the triangle was sprayed over with top colour and a further numeral 5 applied.

In looking laterally as to why the 8 appears to be the first application but there is no evidence of it being either under the vestiges of 5/6 or protecting over 5/6, I am wondering in the case of the Red 8 that maybe there was a solvent used to remove the majority of it prior the secondary applications.

Just a thought.

PeterA

[Larry Hickey]

Peter et al.

The octane triangle was a factory markings, so it would have been applied before any tactical numbers. I think that the Yellow or ? 8 was next. The real question is whether the 5 or the 6 was next, with the other one of those two being the last application that it carried the day it was shot down. This a/c looks to me like it originally carried the 1939-style markings pattern, which was subsequently updated to the 1940-style, with a mottle added in the later summer of fall of 1940.

Regards,

Larry