22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Chris,

Yes, you are correct - the P-47 was hit by groundfire from Obergefreiter Dorn.

Best regards,
Rob

[hautemarnechris]

Larry

there's a chateau in Pocancy village on, surprise,surprise, Rue De Chateau. That I think is Chateau St George. And right in the Champagne country too. Those Luftwaffe officers knew how to live!

Chris

[hautemarnechris]

Originally Posted by rob van den nieuwendijk

Hello Chris,

Yes, you are correct - the P-47 was hit by groundfire from Obergefreiter Dorn.

Best regards,
Rob

Thanks Rob - that squares the circle.

Chris

[hautemarnechris]

Attachment 7970

Larry, Nick and Rob

here's my final offering on this subject. It's a note/comment on an earlier Ultra decrypt of a signal saying that a Geschwaderstab previously thought to be Jg 27 but now believed to be Jg 3 had moved to Chateau St Georges 12Km West of Chalons.

Pocancy village is located 12km West of Chalons - so that probably settles the matter if it's combined with a later Ultra signal which I posted earlier asking for fuel to be delivered to an element of Jg 3 located at Pocancy. Next time I'm in France I shall visit Pocancy to confirm the location of Chateau St Georges.

Thanks again for all the help you have given me. This has been an extremely absorbing, enjoyable and fascinating piece of research for me. I've learned a lot under your superb tutelage about a subject that's new to me - for which I'm very grateful. It's also given me a fairly conclusive answer to the problem I set out to solve.

Larry, I intend topursue the Chalons airfield research and have already written to the Vraux museum curator about it - there are still a few puzzles to be solved there and no doubt I shall be calling on your assistance again and also, I hope, contribute something to knowledge in this area.

Best regards

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

Thank you, Chris, for being the pit bill terrier of a researcher that you are. You diligently pursued this enigma until you had all of the pieces in place and for that we salute you. It was great fun to contribute here and there along the way, but this is your victory and yours alone because you did 95% of the work. Your discoveries once again prove that there is a lot of valueable historical material left to be mined out of the ULTRA and AIR 40 collections for those with the time and patience to work on it. You did a great job.

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Hello again

sorry to be boring about this subject but I thought there was an outside chance somebody would be interested in some new information which sort of rounds-off the discussion. This should be my last post on the subject.

I looked yesterday at British National Archives AIR40/2961 'Enemy airfield activity'. If you don't know this file it reports on (1) aerial recon photos of enemy airfields and what if any aircraft were observed (2) damage reports following raids on enemy airfields (I think it also references recon photos but can't remember now).

There were entries for ATHIS, EPERNAY-PLIVOT, CONDE-SUR-MARNE (ie.Vraux), and VILLENEUVE-VERTUS. All airfields relevant to this discussion about Jg 3 in August 1944 when two of its geschweder were based in the Chalons area.

No aircraft were observed at Athis and Epernay-Plivot on the 14th August. 23 'small' aircraft were observed at Villeneuve- Vertus on the 15th August and 11 'small' aircraft at Conde-sur-Marne (Vraux) on the 11th August. I think small generally means fighter aircraft. I assume that these were from Jg 3.

As for "Chateau St Georges" where Stab elements of Jg 3 were reported by Ultra Intelligence appreciations - it is located just outside the village of Champigneul-Champagne which is close to Pocancy and Villeneuve-Vertus.

I've produced a simple Googlemap showing the locations of all the above. Here's the link https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&mid=1349902138 which I hope works.

Larry, in the unlikely event of you being unaware of AIR40/2961, it might be useful for your work because most of the file is about airfields in Germany. Let me know by private email if there are any dates you're interested in and I can do some jpeg copies for you next time I'm at the archives.

All the best

Chris

PS. the Vraux museum people confirm there was an airstrip just north of Bisseuil but they dont think it was used much if at all by the Luftwaffe (but they did send me a picture of a Marauder parked there in 1944). Apparently it was a WW1 airfield and used as a racetrack between the wars. There's a historian in Bisseuil who they've suggested I contact for more information. I shall try to get to see him next time I'm in the area.

[hautemarnechris]

Sorry, the url for the map should be as follows

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msa...ab347dd52e21d1

And the airfield was at 'Oiry' not Bisseuil - all the alternative names are a bit confusing and I still haven't quite got my head round it. But it was Oiry which is referred to in one of the AIR40 files dealing with airfields in France in June & July (Bisseuil was yet another alternative name for ATHIS)

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

PM just sent to you, Chris. Check your in-box.

Larry

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by hautemarnechris

Hello again

... I thought there was an outside chance somebody would be interested in some new information which sort of rounds-off the discussion.

Yes, there's me for a start. Good work on this Chris, congratulations on turning up so many leads and making sense of them.

FWIW, Vertus was the home of I./JG 27 on 11 June 1944.

P.S. Speaking as a moderator ... If this isn't the end of the story and you do post more (as I hope you will) I think I'll move this thread to the Luftwaffe part of the forum. The original topic was a lost P-47 and we've digressed slightly!

[hautemarnechris]

Thanks Nick. I'll look for this on the Luftwaffe forum if/when I learn more.

Chris