Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent

Hello Stig,

I am going to go backwards until October 1 to treat the whole month in this way.

Laurent

OK
So you begin with going forward and now you are going backwards.
Not easy to follow....
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by HGabor

It is interesting, since as far as I know, on October 21, 1944 the 277 ShAD lost no planes at all, however, the 14 VA, 281 ShAD, 703 ShAP lost two Il-2m3s (c/n: 305211, 305439) in air combat. But this can be far away from your territory in question. The 7 VA, 324 IAD, 197 IAP also lost two Yak-9(D,T/M) (c/n: 14166051, 2515392) fighters in the North.

Gabor

Courtois
Which two Il-2s were lost then by 277ShAD?

Gabor
Is it possible to be more specific where 197IAP lost their two Yak-9s?
Reason I ask is that 13./JG 51 claimed two Yaks that day

Cheers
Stig

[HGabor]

I do not know where they were hit, but on October 21, 1944 fighters of the 324 IAD battled Bf 109s in the Salmijärvi area in Finland.
Gabor

[Stig Jarlevik]

Aha

That far north. Seems to rule out any JG 51 claims.

Plenty of Salmijärvi in Finland but this one should be in the far north I suppose since at this point the Finns
were pushing out the Germans from Finnish territory, so no claims from them.

Checking JG 5 claims on that date there are 21 in all listed by Mombeek so probably two of those.

Cheers
Stig

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

OK
So you begin with going forward and now you are going backwards.
Not easy to follow....
Stig

I'm sorry Stig, throughout my work, I give him information that has no real link with my current work, but which might interest members of the forum, so I summarize it for all. When I decided to start, I was looking at the archives for October 22, now I complete the month.

[Courtois Laurent]

[quote=Stig Jarlevik;316682]Courtois
Which two Il-2s were lost then by 277ShAD?

according the report of the 1st VA, 2 Il-2 have been loosed.

I have made a mistake the 277 ShAD have only 1 Il-2 missing in action according the 1th VA report. Bit I can found loss in this of 277th ShAD. Maybe the Il-2 landed on another ground and joined his unit the next day, which is quite common .

The second is loosed by the 10 ORAP during reconnaissance missions in the Gumbinnen and Philippuv sectors (from memory south of Goldap). I have no more information.

Anyway the Luftwaffe does not claim an Il-2 on October 21, 1944.

Thank you very much Stig, for pointing out my mistakes!


PS ; 324th IAD operating in the Murmansk area ?

[HGabor]

Exactly! VA level (daily) reports are only the first 'snapshots' after the days, which could be changed in the next few days when planes returned from other emergency airfields, or when the ground crews repaired/scrapped the damaged, emergency landed planes. This can be checked only by reviewing the Soviet mechanical reports (alias 'Check-lists') for the airframes and aircraft engines. Unfortunately these are not published online, so information should be obtained from TsAMO RF. (Regiment level 'AKT' reports, or collective write-off reports, etc.) See a sample from 17 VA documentation in Hungary.

Gabor

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194997...posted-public/

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hello

Here are the Luftwaffe losses for Eastern Front units from 16 to 31 October 1944. I am not sure which unit was over East Prussia on which day so I include all JG 51, 52 and 54, all SG and some recon units (cover of the latter in Brekens' public database was only partial).

Loss date:;Unit:;No of Aircraft:;Lost;Category:;Report date:
16/10/1944;Stab/J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;Stab/J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./J.G.51;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;II./J.G.54;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;II./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;20/10/1944
16/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;26/10/1944
16/10/1944;I./S.G.3;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;03/11/1944
16/10/1944;I./S.G.4;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;19/10/1944
16/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;23/10/1944
16/10/1944;III./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;26/10/1944
16/10/1944;11.(Pz.)/S.G.9;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;22/01/1944
16/10/1944;III./S.G.77;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;22/10/1944
17/10/1944;Stab/J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;24/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;20/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;20/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;21/10/1944
17/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;20/10/1944
17/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;20/10/1944
17/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;28/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./J.G.52;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;27/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;27/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;Y;Destroyed on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft;14/01/1945
17/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;20/10/1944
17/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;20/10/1944
17/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;N;Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;31/10/1944
17/10/1944;Stab/S.G.4;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;23/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;23/10/1944
17/10/1944;I./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;23/10/1944
17/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;23/10/1944
17/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;23/10/1944
17/10/1944;II./S.G.77;1;Y;Destroyed on the ground by enemy gunfire from ground forces;01/11/1944
18/10/1944;II./J.G.52;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
18/10/1944;II./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
18/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;22/10/1944
18/10/1944;III./J.G.54;2;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;23/10/1944
18/10/1944;III./S.G.3;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;30/10/1944
18/10/1944;I./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;23/10/1944
18/10/1944;I./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;23/10/1944
18/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;27/10/1944
18/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;27/10/1944
18/10/1944;10.(Pz)/S.G.9;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;12/11/1944
18/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
18/10/1944;I./S.G.77;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;21/10/1944
18/10/1944;II./S.G.77;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;23/10/1944
19/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;23/10/1944
19/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;23/10/1944
19/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;27/10/1944
19/10/1944;II./J.G.52;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;10/11/1944
19/10/1944;III./J.G.52;2;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;27/10/1944
19/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;27/10/1944
19/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
20/10/1944;Stab/J.G.51;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;28/10/1944
20/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;28/10/1944
20/10/1944;II./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;31/10/1944
20/10/1944;Stab/J.G.52;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;27/10/1944
20/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;27/10/1944
20/10/1944;I./S.G.1;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;25/10/1944
20/10/1944;I./S.G.1;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;25/10/1944
20/10/1944;I./S.G.2;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;31/10/1944
20/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;31/10/1944
20/10/1944;I./S.G.4;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;28/10/1944
20/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;28/10/1944
20/10/1944;II./S.G.77;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;24/10/1944
21/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;29/10/1944
21/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;2;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;26/10/1944
21/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;28/10/1944
21/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;29/12/1944
21/10/1944;II./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
21/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;30/10/1944
21/10/1944;Stab/N.A.Gr.5;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;24/10/1944
21/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;01/11/1944
21/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;01/11/1944
21/10/1944;III./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;28/10/1944
21/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;N;Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;28/11/1944
22/10/1944;III./J.G.51;3;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;29/10/1944
22/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;29/10/1944
22/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;29/10/1944
22/10/1944;II./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;07/11/1944
22/10/1944;III./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;07/11/1944
22/10/1944;III./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;07/11/1944
22/10/1944;I./S.G.1;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;25/10/1944
22/10/1944;I./S.G.1;1;N;Damaged on the ground by enemy bombs;25/10/1944
22/10/1944;II./S.G.3;1;Y;Destroyed on the ground by enemy bombs;26/10/1944
22/10/1944;II./S.G.3;1;N;Damaged on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft;27/10/1944
22/10/1944;I./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;28/10/1944
22/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;28/10/1944
22/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
22/10/1944;III./S.G.4;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;28/10/1944
22/10/1944;II./S.G.77;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;25/10/1944
23/10/1944;I./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;31/10/1944
23/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;26/10/1944
23/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;30/10/1944
23/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;30/10/1944
23/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;01/11/1944
23/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;N;Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;01/11/1944
23/10/1944;II./S.G.3;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;12/11/1944
23/10/1944;I./S.G.4;2;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;28/10/1944
23/10/1944;II./S.G.4;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;28/10/1944
23/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
24/10/1944;I./J.G.51;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;28/10/1944
24/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by other enemy action;28/10/1944
24/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;29/10/1944
24/10/1944;I./J.G.52;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;30/10/1944
24/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
24/10/1944;II./J.G.54;2;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;30/10/1944
24/10/1944;II./S.G.3;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;12/11/1944
24/10/1944;III./S.G.4;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;30/10/1944
24/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
24/10/1944;II./S.G.77;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;28/10/1944
25/10/1944;II./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
25/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;01/11/1944
25/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
25/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;12/11/1944
25/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;19/11/1944
25/10/1944;IV./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;04/11/1944
25/10/1944;Stab/S.G.4;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;30/10/1944
25/10/1944;II./S.G.77;1;Y;Destroyed by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;01/11/1944
26/10/1944;IV./J.G.51;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;29/10/1944
26/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;31/10/1944
26/10/1944;Stab/S.G.3;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;01/11/1944
26/10/1944;Stab/S.G.10;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
26/10/1944;III./S.G.10;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
27/10/1944;III./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;31/10/1944
27/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;30/10/1944
27/10/1944;III./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;30/10/1944
27/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;05/11/1944
27/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;05/11/1944
27/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight;05/11/1944
27/10/1944;II./J.G.54;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;05/11/1944
27/10/1944;III./J.G.54;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;05/11/1944
27/10/1944;IV./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;04/11/1944
27/10/1944;III./S.G.3;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;10/11/1944
28/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;05/11/1944
28/10/1944;II./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;05/11/1944
28/10/1944;III./S.G.3;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
29/10/1944;II./J.G.51;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;18/11/1944
29/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Missing Due to enemy action;05/11/1944
29/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed by other enemy action;05/11/1944
29/10/1944;Stab/N.A.Gr.5;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;02/11/1944
29/10/1944;1./N.A.Gr.5;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;01/11/1944
29/10/1944;III./S.G.3;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;09/11/1944
30/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;05/11/1944
30/10/1944;I./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy;18/11/1944
30/10/1944;II./J.G.54;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;03/11/1944
30/10/1944;II./S.G.2;1;N;Damaged by anti-aircraft artillery during operational flight;18/11/1944
30/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on operational flight;15/11/1944
30/10/1944;I./S.G.10;1;Y;Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight;15/11/1944
30/10/1944;II./S.G.10;1;N;Damaged without enemy action on operational flight;16/10/1944
31/10/1944;II./J.G.52;1;N;Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy;15/11/1944

Easiest way to use and clean above list is to copy it in Excel (or similar software) and convert it using ; as delimiter.

Details of some losses gathered on this forum in last years

16 October 1944
1944-10-16, 10./JG 51, Bf 109G-6, 440310, 7 schw. Ebenrode 5 km nordöstlich Eydtkau, Luftkampf. Bruch ? %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Mölders, Alexander, +
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...303#post144303
1944-10-16, 9./JG 51, Bf 109G-6, 411900, 3 gelbe, 12 km östlich Ebenrode, Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Weber, Willy (* 1921-02-09), vermißt
Uffz Weber is also in Deutsches Rotes Kreuz Vermisstenbildliste Band LH on page 227.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...476#post168476

19 October 1944
1944-10-19, 6./SG 4, Fw 190 F-8, 582282, Südlich Ebenrode (Nesterov)
Flugzeugführer Uffz Bauer, Franz, +
Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...800#post217800

23 October 1944
1944-10-23, 3./JG 51, Bf 109G-14/U4, 511007, 12 braune, 10 km nordöstlich Insterburg, Um 14.40 Uhr bei Überführung. Bruch ? %.
Flugzeugführer Olt Waibel, Jakob. +
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...137#post173137

[Courtois Laurent]

Thanks to Laurent RIZZOTTI, we can make a comparison :

Report of the Soviet overclaiming from October 22 to 31, 1944.

October 22: Overclaiming rate 20/23.

October 23: Overclaiming rate 16/17.

October 24: overclaiming rate 1011.

October 25: The Luftwaffe does not lose any aircraft to enemy action other than the DCA. For its part, the 1st VA claims 5 victories including 4 FW-190 and 1 Me-109.
Overclaiming 5/5.

October 26: The Luftwaffe loses only one Me-109 to enemy action. For its part, the 1st VA claims 9 victories including 6 FW-190 and 3 Me-109.
Overclaiming 8/9.

October 27: The Germans declare only two Me-109s damaged by the enemy. On their side air combat three German planes shot down (2 FW 190 and 1 Me 109). 1st OIAP "Normandie" claims 1 Fw-190 and 1 Me 109
Overclaiming 3/3.

October 28 : ace of German losses. The Soviets report two dogfights during which an Hs-126 is shot down.

October 29 : no German losses. The Soviets report two dogfights without results.

October 30 : no German losses, no Soviet claims (no encounter with enemy aircraft).

October 31 : no German losses, no Soviet claims.

Balance of October 22 to October 31 the overclaiming rate is 62/68. 91.7, which is very close to that obtained by the Luftwaffe (92%).

Nevertheless, the sample is still too small, so we must continue over the whole month, or even more.