355 FG engagements w/experten

[strafer]

Definitely at Kbely but it is "Letnany" what was mentioned in the NMR.
F.

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by kb

Re 29 April the 355th filed one claim on this date, by ace Henry Brown over a 109 near Brunswick at 1145; Steinke went down roughly two hours later.

Other P51 groups:
4th FG filed no aerial claims (over fighters).
352nd filed two, 1-109 and 1-190; I don't have location data.
355th per above
363rd (9th AF P51 squadron) filed no claims
357th filed no claims

The only other P51 equipped group in the ETO at this time was 354th FG, but unfortunately I have no info on their activities this day. I'd lay odds that the 354th is the outfit that shot down Steinke.

Originally Posted by drgondog

Richard - I did not see this until today.

No, not likely a 355th pilot - more likely a 352nd FG score in the s. Haldensleben area (Me 109) by Cpt E.L. Abbot. The 354th FG got their scores in the Gardelegen to Brandenburg axis so they were further north and escorting the 2nd BD B-24s.

Equally probable - downed by B-17 in Magdeburg area.

Gents

I really appreciate your input into answering my question concerning the downing of Rolf Steinke on 29-Apr-44. As a result, I have a couple more questions on the subject:

Is it known whether the claim by Cpt. E.L. Abbot can lead to a positive ID as the pilot who downed Steinke? Has this claim been attributed to another Jagdfleiger other than Steinke?

Also as indicated, he may also of been shot down by defensive fire from one or more B-17 aircraft. Are there any records which can be explored detailing the claims of B-17 crews? I do appreciate that this may be an impossible ask however, from where I am sitting it is worth asking the question.

Thank you in anticipation.

Regards Richard.

[kb]

Richard,

I did a quick check in Herr Prien's unit history of IV/JG3.

IV/JG 3 flew two sorties on 29 April 1944. After assembling with other gruppen in the Magdeburg area it engaged B17s between 1100-1120. The aircraft it attacked were coming from Brunswick and had an escort of "40 Mustangs" (roughly a group). They claimed 5 destroyed and 4 separations.

After this attack the group landed at Salzwedel where it refueled and rearmed then attacked a B24 wing near Gardelegen claiming several more separations at 1320. No mention of an escort

For the entire day IV/JG3 lost 3 ME109s and the attached Sturmstaffel lost 5 FW190s . Contrary to my previous post, Prien's loss list for IV/JG3 aircrew is silent on the time of day of Steinke's downing.

Abbot would appear to be the best possibility to have encountered Steinke, other than a bomber gunner.

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by kb

Richard,

I did a quick check in Herr Prien's unit history of IV/JG3.

IV/JG 3 flew two sorties on 29 April 1944. After assembling with other gruppen in the Magdeburg area it engaged B17s between 1100-1120. The aircraft it attacked were coming from Brunswick and had an escort of "40 Mustangs" (roughly a group). They claimed 5 destroyed and 4 separations.

After this attack the group landed at Salzwedel where it refueled and rearmed then attacked a B24 wing near Gardelegen claiming several more separations at 1320. No mention of an escort

For the entire day IV/JG3 lost 3 ME109s and the attached Sturmstaffel lost 5 FW190s . Contrary to my previous post, Prien's loss list for IV/JG3 aircrew is silent on the time of day of Steinke's downing.

Abbot would appear to be the best possibility to have encountered Steinke, other than a bomber gunner.

kb

Thank you very much indeed for the additional information concerning IV./JG3 and Rolf Steinke. This has helped immeasurably in allowing a picture to be formed around Rolf Steinke's last day.

I take it from yours and previous posts that the FG providing escort cover in this axis of Operation was indeed the 352 FG?

This being the case, are there any pointers as to where I can look to see which BG's on 29-Apr-44 and were consequently covered by the 352 FG?

Any help in this matter really will be very much appreciated indeed.

Regards Richard.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Richard Mills

kb

Thank you very much indeed for the additional information concerning IV./JG3 and Rolf Steinke. This has helped immeasurably in allowing a picture to be formed around Rolf Steinke's last day.

I take it from yours and previous posts that the FG providing escort cover in this axis of Operation was indeed the 352 FG?

This being the case, are there any pointers as to where I can look to see which BG's on 29-Apr-44 and were consequently covered by the 352 FG?

Any help in this matter really will be very much appreciated indeed.

Regards Richard.

Abbot was leading 328FS/352FG on this day. He could not locate his assigned B-17s (almost certainly 3rdBD- 1st TF) attacking Berlin, then Magdebird. He led his squadron down to attack airfields. He led the squadron west from Neuhaldersleben and encountered a 109 coming from west to east..

He shot it down but it was too low for the pilot to bail out and it crash landed at high speed.

[kb]

He managed to bail out but was too low for his parachute to deploy.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kb

He managed to bail out but was too low for his parachute to deploy.

"..and I followed, hitting him with another burst. Right after that he jettisoned his canopy, preparing to bail out but the aircraft was too low to the ground. His aircraft then hit the ground while still doing 250mph and tumbled along while pieces flew in every direction."

quote page 69 Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney.

Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

[kb]

[quote/]Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?[/quote]

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by drgondog

"..and I followed, hitting him with another burst. Right after that he jettisoned his canopy, preparing to bail out but the aircraft was too low to the ground. His aircraft then hit the ground while still doing 250mph and tumbled along while pieces flew in every direction."

quote page 69 Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney.

Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

Originally Posted by kb

[quote/]Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?[/quote]

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Richard Mills

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.[/quote]

First - Kb either scenario works for me - high speed crash landings frequently threw the pilot and as he had punched his canopy at the very minimum he probably had loosened his seat belt/harness.

Richard - IMHO there is very little chance that one could match Abbott to Steinke unless a.) this location near Magdeburg is pretty close to Neuhaldensleben airfield and b.) no other 109s went down that close to same claim/award location to perhaps B-17 gunners.

As there was no other Mustang/109 claim against JG3 attacking B-17s in Magdeburg area it is probable that B-17 gunners actually matched a claim to two 109 kills if two or more IV./JG3 went down in that area..There were however credits for 109s from Brunswick through Steinhuder Lake to Stendal, Brandenburg and Berlin

ALL the other 109 credits (including 9th AF) were essentially in a straight line from east of Hannover to Berlin area. Only the 352nd FG were awarded a credit for a 109 and 190 in the general area of Magdeburg south of Berlin...

Last answer to question. The 328FS/352nn FG led by Abbott probably assigned to escort the smaller strike force of the 3rd BD attacking Magdeburg. There were too few long rang escorts to devote more than one group to a 'branch target' when the main target was Berlin... so highly probable that the 352nd was the assigned group to the attacking 381st and 447th BG's.

This was one of the 8th BC worst days (comparable to May12) for poor navigation and route execution. Several FGs orbited for close to an hour (including the 355th and 352nd at theri assigned R/V points waiting for their bombers to show up.

If you can get your hands on the 8th AF Fighter Command Mission Summary for 8th FC FO 320, it will be a complete roll up of all the individual FG assignments and results, including 9th AF and RAF units involved...