Erich Hartmann: 352 victories or... 80?

[Juha]

hello Kari
surely the JG 5 wasn't the only JG overclaiming but IMHO it was rather extreme case. On that Finnish AF case, as You know Luukkanen, the CO of LeLv 34, was against the reining of the "hunting" because he was afraid that it would undermain the agressiveness of his pilots. IMHO he rightly thought that the agressiveness was one of the main ingredients of good fighter pilot but in this case the higher echelons were probably right, it wasn't very productive to try to "hunt" I-153s with Bf 109Gs over such a well defended place like Lavansaari. Especially for the FAF which was entirely dependent from Germany for resupply of combat capable fighters.

On claim accuracy, in west one problem are the air-gunners, their claims were heavily inflated but they shot down a lot of planes and one must figure out some sort of estimete of their share before it is possible to begin calculate an estimate on the accuracy of Allied fighter pilots claims.

Juha

[Boandlgramer]

a lot of cross reading in this thead.
no reason to become angry , christer .
not everybody is a troll.


maybe another try:
from your post.

German day fighter combat losses in "the West" or over Germany April 1944: 574 (including approximately 70 % to US fighters, an assumption based on extrapolated statistics for a number of selected Geschwader).

were these 574 fighters shot down in the air only and we have to add about the same number lost due accident ?
as graham wrote: accidents made up as many losses as aerial combat

were the german fighter losses in the west in april about 1100 ac ?
or was the accident rate compared to the combat rate even higher than 1: 1 , due the poor training of the new pilots ?

[Boandlgramer]

btw.

these are not MY numbers.
i took them from here:

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/w...d_pdf/t100.pdf

[Christer Bergström]

Boandlgramer, of course I agree on the troll issue. I am avoiding the irritating kids which use this forum as a playground, and I instead send my replies in personal messages to the serious people here who have asked me questions and not yet received answers. Check your Personal message inbox, Boandlgramer.

MB and other serious people, now I think you understand why I prefer that you send me an e-mail when you have questions.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

I totally agree with Juha: the Reichsverteidigung losses are not as easy. The bomber gunners always shot down significant number of fighters, you must counting it too (and must knowing it), but the serious overclaiming of the US bomber gunners again another problem.

[Christer Bergström]

Csaba, another personal message is going out. Check your inbox.

[Franek Grabowski]

I am avoiding the irritating kids which use this forum as a playground, and I instead send my replies in personal messages to the serious people here who have asked me questions and not yet received answers.

I am still awaiting a reply for my questions.

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/normandy4.htm

Hptm. Karl-Heinz Weber, a veteran with over 500 combat missions from the autumn of 1940, and 136 victories, Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 1: At around 1000 hrs on 7 June 1944, about 10 Bf 109s of III./JG 1, commanded by Hptm. Weber, were en route to the frontlines. (Clark, "Angels Eight", p. 56.) But already northeast of Paris they were attacked from above by 30 Allied fighters (Prien, "JG 1/11", pp. 1008 - 1009), and Weber crashed to his death at Pontoise, north of Paris. Apart from Weber, one more III./JG 1 Bf 109 was shot down in that combat. It is possible that Weber was killed in combat with 24 Mustangs from 306 and 315 squadrons of 133 (Polish) Wing, which claimed to have shot down four Bf 109s in the Dreux area. (David Clark, CD "Daily Data tables of the Normandy Air War Diary", 7 June 1944.) Due to a Polish aviation enthusiast, Weber was shot down in a combat with only four Polish Mustangs, but I have in vain asked to see the source to that claim.

I am curious why do you call me a Polish aviation enthusiast while everybody knows that my name is Franek Grabowski. Also, I would like to know, why do you lie about sources? You perfectly know that I have published my findings in a French journal. See http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1055 for example.
Finally, what is the matter with sources if you cannot quote them properly. Prien/Rodeike mention three Me 109s lost on 7 June 1944!

[John Beaman]

I am closing this thread. It has gotten off topic (Hartmann's claims) and is getting personal. If someone wishes to start a new Hartmann claim thread and stick to the subject matter, that's fine. But this thread is way off topic.