Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Well sheer genius obviously played a part, but I think (from memory) that once the ADI(K)s were finally declassified in the UK I checked out the AIR 40 paper index at the (then) PRO. Online, it's easy enough to find e.g. via a search in AIR40 using the keyword "prisoner." Once you get a hit, use the "browse from here" button. With AIR40/2423 the details given are that the file covers July–August 1945 and has the "scope and content: 343-381." From that you can infer that it contains No. 1945/351.

BTW, as far as I know there is no English translation of Stab KG 77's diary apart from the one I made of the 1944 entries, so I never felt I'd wasted my time on it. I needed it for a book I was co-writing and I got a result I could trust (or at least know the many limitations of).

Nick, thank you for describing the logic of the search. Among the interrogation reports, AIR 40/2422 to AIR 40/2426 cover the immediate post-war period and seem to be candidates for possible sources of loss data. Does the paper index list the titles of the reports contained in the files, unlike the online catalogue?

Now I understand the point about the war diary!

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Didn't receive a PM from you I'm afraid.

All the best

Andreas

I must apologise to you and Andreas Brekken, I thought you were one and the same person. The different user names didn't register!

Here's all the loss data extracted from the ADI(K) report mentioned above:
br All 44 br Dec 44 br Jan 45 br Feb 45
Day Fighters br 2291 br 315 br 152 br 30
Night Fighters br 664 br 94 br 47 br 47
Attacks on Airfields br 2110 br 142 br 87 br no data
Western Front Day br 2996 br 675 br 427 br 168
Western Front Night br 1074 br 160 br 50 br 21
Luftflotte 4 br 1055 br 82 br 103 br 62
Luftflotte 6 br 889 br 26 br 229 br 376
Luftflotte 1 br 460 br 23 br 4 br 12
Norway br 68 br 4 br 12 br 29
Finland br 153 br 5 br 0 br 0
Denmark br 1 br 5 br 1 br 0
Italy br 966 br 7 br 3 br 5
Total br 12727 br 1538 br 1115 br no data
Without ground attacks br 10617 br 1396 br 1028 br 750
Total East br 2557 br 136 br 336 br 450
Total West br 8060 br 1260 br 692 br 300

Paul Thompson

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Does the paper index list the titles of the reports contained in the files, unlike the online catalogue?

I must apologise to you and Andreas Brekken, I thought you were one and the same person.

Paul Thompson

1) No, it doesn't but it wouldn't take that long to flip through those files you mention to see what the report titles are and get copies of the ones you want. You could do it in less than a day, I'd think.

2) We definitely aren't.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

1) No, it doesn't but it wouldn't take that long to flip through those files you mention to see what the report titles are and get copies of the ones you want. You could do it in less than a day, I'd think.

2) We definitely aren't.

1) Now it's all clear. One of us will do that very soon, since it's quite easy to view documents in Kew, as you've said.

2) Sorry, I was referring to AndreasB and Andreas Brekken. Hopefully that ends the confusion!

Below is a summation of all Luftwaffe losses through March 1945, which I think is essentially identical to the one was put up on this forum by Andreas Brekken some years ago.

Aircraft Losses and Damage
Total for All types from September 1939 to March 1945
November and December 1941 data missing

Missing over German territory
15015
Destroyed by Flak over German territory (German-controlled territory?)
2598
Damaged by Flak and requiring replacement
991
Destroyed by Fighters
12111
Damaged by Fighters and requiring replacement
2191
Destroyed by Ground fire
229
Damaged by Ground fire
80
Destroyed by Bombs
4216
Damaged by Bombs
734

Total losses to enemy action
34169
Aircraft damaged by enemy action requiring replacement
3996
Total losses without enemy action
21228
Aircraft damaged without enemy action requiring replacement
11411

Paul Thompson

[Paul Thompson]

Unfortunately, there is no loss information in the ADI(K)s apart from that included in Book 21. At Kew, the information, as Nick indicated, is in AIR 40/2423, ADI(K) 351 GAF Operations, Claims and Losses, 1944 - February 1945 also 352 Establishment, Strength, Serviceability and Losses of GAF Flying Units, 1938 to December 1944 and finally 366 GAF Aircrew and Aircraft Losses, September 1939 - January 1945.

The only other item of interest, although not containing any loss information is in AIR 20/7706, AHB translation VII/107 Luftwaffe Strength and Serviceability Tables August 1938 - April 1945.

Does anyone have any ideas as to where else to look?

Paul Thompson

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

a summation of all Luftwaffe losses ... which I think is essentially identical to the one was put up on this forum by Andreas Brekken some years ago.

Not quite, the information identical to Andreas Brekken's comes from a slightly different source, reproduced below:

A.D.I.(K) Report No.366/1945
GAF Aircrew and Aircraft Losses to 10.1.45
Period 1.9.39 to 10.1.45
Operational
Aircraft Written off (over 60% damaged)
40613 (1774)
Aircraft Damaged
20492 (820)
Non-Operational
Aircraft Written off (over 60% damaged)
10457 (1043)
Aircraft Damaged
15171 (1614)
Schools and Other Stations
Aircraft Written off (over 60% damaged)
11442 (5659)*
Aircraft Damaged
9931 (5537)*
The figures given in brackets ( ) show the number of school and training aircraft and miscellaneous non-operational types included in the totals
The figures given in brackets ( )* show the numbers of operational types included in the total losses at schools and other stations

For ease of reference, http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...33&postcount=2 is Andreas Brekken's post from the 21st September 2009.

Are there any ideas as to other sources which may be useful?

Paul Thompson

[Tony Jones]

Hi

Re AHB 6 data at Duxford, there are many tins of films of original documents. I have looked at all of them any you will not find loss data on them.. Most of them are Flak Regiment KTB just listing the daily numbers od Allied Bombers noted.

Regards

Tony

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Tony Jones

Hi

Re AHB 6 data at Duxford, there are many tins of films of original documents. I have looked at all of them any you will not find loss data on them.. Most of them are Flak Regiment KTB just listing the daily numbers od Allied Bombers noted.

Regards

Tony

Hello Tony,

Are you sure this is the case for all of the films? To cite the clearest example, Tin 30 contains a document named "GAF sorties and losses". They also have the 6th Abteilung lists, but those are of course not relevant to the question of loss totals. Did you make any notes about the scope of Tin 30?

Regards

Paul Thompson

[Tony Jones]

Hi

I looked at every frame on every film, including tin 30, I was in particular looking for loss data and there isn't anything here in AHB 6.

Regards

Tony

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Tony Jones

Hi

I looked at every frame on every film, including tin 30, I was in particular looking for loss data and there isn't anything here in AHB 6.

Regards

Tony

Thank you, Tony. I have two questions as a result:

1) Did you look anywhere else for loss data and if so, did you find anything?

2) What does Tin 30 contain?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Tony Jones]

Paul

There are well over 100-150 tins fot AHB 6 and I found one loss in a Flak KTB in 1944, an He 111 with c/n and serial.

Other tins had KTB for NJG units with say 4 bombers shot down, own losses 1 x Bf 110 and 1 X Bf 109, no c/n or serials, crew names given but I have no interest in these. I started at Tin 1 and worked through to the last one, it took 5 visits.

I was very disappointed with AHB 6 no detail whatsoever of a/c.

The are a series of films "Luftwaffe Situation Reports" from 1938 to end of 1942, plenty of pilot names but no c/n data. Each film has nearly a 1000 pages, all original documents.

There are bound volumes of RAF Intelligence daily reports, many losses for both sides but no c/n or serial apart from one Seenots a/c.
I took copies up to the end of BoB, and a loss chart in 1944. I have just given this data to Steve Sheridan (on TOCH) and by now he may have studied it to see if it gives new data.

There are the Milch films, original minutes of all his meetings on production etc.

There are lots of Rechlin reports etc, especially for Me 262 and other jets.

There is the Mintech Collection of say 2,000 films, the same collection as in Washington. Duxford has films missing in Silver Hill Washington and thye have films missing at Duxford. We looked at very on of these films

We made about 75 visits and looked at nearly everything there.

Regards

Tony