German docs in TSAMO

[Larry deZeng]

Nick Beale wrote:

I plan to be frozen with instructions to revive me when the 1944 Gen.Qu. loss returns are rediscovered!

Indeed, where could these be? I put my money on the removal of 1944 for study by Allied (probably U.S.) researchers immediately after the war, then misplaced by them and never returned to rejoin the other Verlustmeldungen Leitz binders or files. There is some corroboration for this in:

Eckert, Astrid M. The Struggle for the Files: The Western Allies and the Return of German Archives After the Second World War. WashDC: Cambridge University Press, 2013. ISBN: 978-1-107-62920-2. Pb. 427p. Abbreviations. Bibliography (extensive). Index. (Comment: a scholarly masterpiece but awkwardly written.)

L.

[edNorth]

Larry, probably lost in translation ???

Not everything is listed in BArc database, and they have, I am told, habit of refiling.

Many IWM FD numbers are quoted (Speer Collection) but not all. I am looking for two IWM FD doc numbers,

that do not appear in BArc inventio. FD 5546/45 and FD 5610/45.

[Larry deZeng]

Ed -
The only problem with the Imperial War Museum (IWM) hypothesis is that since the early 1970's a good 50,000 Lw. researchers, historians and enthusiasts have searched every nook and cranny of IWM and its storage facility at RAF Duxford for the missing 1944 Verlustmedlungen. What are the odds that the staff and all of these people missed it?

L.

[Larry deZeng]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

Nothing after 1940?
Larry, most of the KTBs in the f.500 are about the Polish campaign 1939. It seems the sole "Polish" collection was captured. Almost nothing like this for 1941-45, unfortunately. Few sporadic pieces only.
Luftwaffe reports in the Heeres documents are far more numerous.
Best regards,
Andrey

Thanks, Andrey. Ever since Glasnost and Boris Yeltsin, news of this collection (Sonderarchiv) of German documents captured by the Red Army dribbled out in bits and pieces - some factual, some delusional - in Prologue, the magazine of the U.S. National Archives, and in the bi-monthly newsletter of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington. I kept close watch on both from around 1993 to 2010 or so. These claimed there were "thousands" of boxes of Luftwaffe documents found and seized in East Germany in 1945-47 and many more containing Lw. documents captured in the field, especially during Bagration in summer 1944. It was also said that a "huge" amount of this material was for the 1942-45 period.

So now it appears that a lot of this information about the holdings of the Sonderarchiv Moskau is incorrect? That's an enormous disappointment.

The Luftwaffe reports that appear in the Germany Army (Heer) records are identical in style to those that appear in the microfilmed German Army records in NARA RG 242 Microcopies T-311, T-312 and T-313. They were so generalized and redacted by the Luftwaffe before being distributed to the Army that they are today of little value or interest to air war researchers and historians. As you know, the Luftwaffe and the German Army did not get along all that well, to say the least. This rivalry and petty jealousy kept the Luftwaffe from sharing much with their comrades in Feldgrau other than the bare essentials.


L.

[edNorth]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

Ed -
The only problem with the Imperial War Museum (IWM) hypothesis is that since the early 1970's a good 50,000 Lw. researchers, historians and enthusiasts have searched every nook and cranny of IWM and its storage facility at RAF Duxford for the missing 1944 Verlustmedlungen. What are the odds that the staff and all of these people missed it?
L.

You read it wrong. Misfiling can have happened at any point.

BTW, IWM Duxford holdings are so "inaccessable" (obstacle race kind) ATM to be a disgrace and insault to real researchers, except you have plenty time and bottomless pockets to draw funds from. Had correspondance with Boss there only weeks ago.
Can write more stronger words but dont.

[Steve Coates]

I think the actual number might be several thousand lower but I'm with Larry on this.

Ed - There's a very good reason you can't find those two items at the BA-MA. Only so-called State material has been restituted to Freiburg, material relating to so-called private enterprises has been retained as war booty although of course one does from time to time run across material which appears to defy this rule. These two files are at Duxford - FD 5546/45 (Speer Collection Box 206) and FD 5610/45 (Speer Collection Box 208).

I have spent a fair amount of time cross referencing Duxford's Speer Collection guide to a separate box list they held to give an indication as to which files they still held in paper format and would be happy to send this to you if you can send me a PM with your e-mail address. Unfortunately, it's too big to upload here. Everything they returned from this collection was microfilmed and forms part of their Speer Collection microfilms.

The only problem with access at present is that the these boxes are in deep storage as Building 6 is currently the subject of extensive refurbishment. These works are likely to be completed in early 2019 when hopefully something approaching normal service will be resumed although researchers will from then on need to work in the new reading room.

[edNorth]

Ah, Steve, great to know. Thanks.
Will send PM.

[Steve Coates]

Ed - PM received and list provided.

I should also write a few lines in defence of Duxford and Stephen Walton in particular. The inaccessibility is simply due to the significant building works being undertaken, coupled with the removal of asbestos related materials before these works could commence. The extent of these works has meant that the files and microfilm reels have had to go into deep storage. Stephen was good enough to let me visit in February just as the boxes were being removed. The material is accessible under very limited conditions and with 28 days notice which frankly means anyone interested in any of the files is best off waiting for the building work to be completed which will be early 2019.

Researchers will be hard pressed to find a more accommodating and helpful archivist than Stephen Walton. I can't speak too highly of him.

[edNorth]

Originally Posted by Steve Coates

I think the actual number might be several thousand lower but I'm with Larry on this.

"Thousands" might be just be handful of nerds like us looking... Took five emails get beyond IWM outer defences, and fill in forms and then get "not open" answer. Nothing personal but its a hindrance on a very long route. If Mr. Green ever went there or Kew, it must have been just for coffee. The other William did not. No indication of Manfred or Eddie going either that I know of. But further comment make thread go off topic.

[Larry deZeng]

Steve Coates wrote in part:

Researchers will be hard pressed to find a more accommodating and helpful archivist than Stephen Walton. I can't speak too highly of him.

I couldn't agree more. I had a number of e-mail dealings with him in 2015, 2016 and 2017 and found him to be helpful, pleasant and prompt in his replies.

L.