Strange case of Walter Dahl

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Hope I'm not proved wrong, but I believe both Joachim Brendel and Gunther Josten to have been honest, as Dahl's were not even dis-honest claims but post-war fictional claims, then Josten and Brendel would be tops.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Johannes, I am inclined to agree that Brendel and Josten were very good:

Guenther Josten

3rd claim
8.6.43/1913
IL-2 Sturmovik
Slobodan (PQ 54863) @ 200m
614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk

4th, 5th and 6th claims
10.6.43/1916, 1921 and 1925
3 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Bryansk airfield
62 and 312 ShAP. 62 ShAP lost Mladshiy Leytenants Anufriyev and Popov emergency landed back at base. 312 ShAP lost Mladshiy Leytenants Ivliyev and Komarovsky also emergency landed back at base

8th claim
10.7.43/1125
IL-2 Sturmovik
Eisenbahnknie Orel (PQ 63587) @ 300m
2 GShAD. Details pending

9th claim
10.7.43/1130
Pe-2
Eisenbahnknie Orel (PQ 53664) @ 400m
3 BAK. Details pending

10th claim
12.7.43/0546
IL-2 Sturmovik
Nowosil (PQ 63233) @ 200m
Day's IL-2 losses include Vasily Ivanovich Borzilov of 667 ShAP KIA

30th claim
3.8.43/1520
La-5FN ("LaGG-5")
PQ 54 445 @ low altitude
13 IAP, 201 IAD, 10 IAK, 2 VA. Overclaiming? No losses mentioned

37th claim
14.8.43/0600
IL-2 Sturmovik
Kharkov-Poltava (PQ 51847) @ 200m
66 ShAP, 2 VA. 4 losses. Details pending
(Oskar Romm claimed 2 and Wolfgang Ohl claimed 1 of the others)

63rd and 64th claims
7.9.43/1610
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Bagonova – Felipovo Railway
70 GShAP, Anwar Khamidovich Mustafin and Alexey Dmitrievich Zhitenev (both POW), pilot Zaichikov KIA but gunner Sergey Andreyevich Barlet baled out POW. Pilots Stukalin and Aliyev both failed to return. Mustafin died in captivity, Barlet later escaped

74th and 75th claims
15.9.43/1205 and 1250
2 x La-5s
Smolensk sector
1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. 1 VA's La-5 losses include Ml.Lts . Petr Fedotovich Kovaletov, and Viktor Dmitrievich Semenov plus Lt. Ivan Vladimorovich Stadnichik and St.Serzhant Ivan Alekseevich Mironenko of 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK all KIA

79th claim
17.9.43/1050
Pe-2
Rusinezy @ 2500m
1 VA or 3 VA. 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date

81st claim
17.9.43/1350
La-5
Jselo @ lowest altitude
1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. 1 VA's La-5 losses include Ml.Lt. Vasilii Ivanovich Vlasov of 522 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA

83rd and 84th claims
5.2.44/0900 and 0902
2 x Bostons
57 BAP. Losses include CO of 1AE, Ivan Ivanovich Steba and crew all KIA. Plus pilots Alexander Grigorievich Kalmykov (and crew KIA), Lt. Nikonov, Lt Rud (HSU, shot down for the 4th time), Lt. Gadyuchko and CO of 2AE, pilot named Yakshin

97th claim
26.6.44/1145
P-39 Airacobra
Was this St.Lt. Vladimir Georgevich Serov of 159 IAP KIA? One source says 68 IAP

106th claim
20.8.44/1240
IL-2 Sturmovik
570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date

122nd claim
12.9.44/0921
P-39 Airacobra
Was this the Yak-3 of Podpolkovnik Alexei Borisovich Panov HSU, OL, 2 x ORB, Order of A Nievskii, OPW 1st class and ORS of 67 GIAP, KIA?

123rd claim
18.9.44/1345
B-17G-80-BO Flying Fortress
Warsaw area (PQ 03685) @ 3500m
One loss, from 568th BS, 390th BG: 43-38175 (was it named "I'll be seeing you"?) Lt. Francis E Akins and 7 others KIA, 1 POW and 1 evaded capture (Also claimed by Kurt Dombacher, slight overclaiming)

167th and 168th claims
22.4.45
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
S of Stettin
Were these from 47 ShAP? They lost Starshina Aleksei Timofeyevich Vasil'kov listed as KIA this date

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Joachim Brendel

6.7.42/1925 MiG-3 Was this Lt. Stepan Ivanovich Tsarevskiy of 27 IAP KIA this date?

9.7.42/0420 MiG-3 Was this from 519 IAP? Lt. Nikolay Alexandrovich Smirnov (AE CO) KIA this date

18.1.43/0802, 0805 and 0809 3 x Pe-2s 2nd Eskadrilya, 202 BAP, 263 BAD, 1 BAK, 3 VA. Six losses: No. 6/115 of Lt. M V Orlov KIA, Lt. P G Slobodyan and Serzhant S I Filonchik baled out POW; crew of Serzhants P A Teplishchev, A I Golovlev and S E Vilkov; No.3/104 (Tail No.15) of Lt. B S Kardapoltsev, Mladshiy Leitenant A K Bondarenko and Serzhant A I Kozhbakov all baled out over Lake Karataj, one crewmen died on the way down and the others were KIA on the ground (in a gun battle with Germans trying to take them POW?) crew of Lt. Aleksandr Vasilyevich Shemyakin, Lt. N G Prikhodko Serzhant V F Pavlov (fate not specified) No. 19/104 (Tail No.18) of Serzhant A P Sozinov, Lt. T M Shapovalov and Serzhant V K Kalinichenko at least one crewman apparently evaded capture, other two KIA; crew of Serzhant Viktor Viktorovich Chirov, Ml. Lt. V T Gaevsky and Serzhant F I Mikheev (Jennewein claimed 5 as well)

9.3.43/0727 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. This was likely Mayor Prokorov as he was first to go down. Bellylanded 8 km south of Zalegoshch, he returned to his unit on the 13.3.43

9.3.43/0732 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. Other losses were S-t. Mikhail Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, St. S-t. Vasiliy Ivanovich Ivlev, S-t. Egor Egorovich Ekimov and S-t. Aleksandr Vasil'evich Pomazkin all MIA (Klaus Dietrich claimed one and Guenther Schack claimed two)

6.5.43/1330 IL-2 Sturmovik 41 ShAP, 299 ShAD. 15 losses (remainder to flak, only one crew returned) (Herbert Epphardt claimed one, Josef Jennewein claimed 5)

7.5.43/0505 and 0515 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 58 and 79 GShAP, 2 GShAD (only 1 aircraft returned: Kapt Parshin and Snr Sgt Matveev crashed near Novosil). Known losses include Lt. Mingalev of 79 ShAP. Greatest losses to fighters appears to have been by 58 GShAP (Epphardt and Bareuther claimed two each)

28.5.43/1124 La-5 Known to be engaged against 160 IAP. I am awaiting further details on this one

8.6.43/1911 and 1912 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk sector (Loeber, Josten and Ziegenfuss also claimed)

10.6.43/1937 Yak-1 122 IAP, two losses: Maj. Tzagojko damaged, bellylanded behind German lines and Mladshiy Leytenant Nepokrytov MIA/KIA. Additionally 162 IAP lost Starshin Seluka MIA/KIA as well. (These three losses are accounted for by Brendel, Schwarz and Haase’s claims)

6.7.43/0539 Boston III 8 GBAP, 57 BAP, 745 BAP/221 BAD of 16 VA (Central Front). 16 losses for the day 8 GBAP lost 7, 745 BAP lost 6 and 57 BAP lost 3 Bostons all up. 6 are attributed to fighters

7.7.43/0820 Boston III 745 BAP lost 3 Bostons this day and this was almost certainly one of them

9.7.43/0541 and 0544 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 299 ShAD. Ml.Lt. Gerasim Petrovich Zadorozhnyy was attacked by 7 Fw190s and there were other losses (I am awaiting further details…)

15.9.43/1705 Yak-9 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. Day's losses include Lt. Dmitriy Kudryavtsev of 86 GIAP KIA , Ml.Lt. Yurii Vasilievich Gromov of 263 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA. 149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA (plenty of scope for this one to be a legitimate victory, therefore…)

17.9.43/1043 Pe-2 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date (possibly by Brendel, Josten or Lindner)

12.10.43/1120 Yak-9 Morning's Yak-9 losses in Orsha sector include Ivan Chernii of 18 GIAP, 303 IAD, 1VA baled out after combat with Fw190s but KIA by German infantry (Brendel, Vechtel or Grumme likely shot him down)

13.10.43/0855 Pe-2 128 GBAP. 4 losses: Gv.Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pavlovich Simenskoy safe and Gds. St. Lt. Ivan Isaevich Prokorenko MIA (both attributed to Flak), Gv.Lts. Pavel Sergeevich Kukushkin (forcelanded WIA after fighter attack, POW a year later) and Alexei Kuzmich Barinov (POW, escaped 1944)

24.6.44/1036 IL-2 Sturmovik mH (Bareuther claimed one as well) 946 ShAP, 196 ShAD, 4 ShAK, 16 VA had an encounter with Fw190s this date, claiming one shot down for no losses. Do these claims actually pertain to that encounter?

30.6.44/1750 La-5 ("LaGG-5") Possibly 67 GIAP, 273 IAD, 6 IAK. Lt. V P Alekseev forcelanded WIA (Losigkeit and Wever also claimed La-5s during the course of the day, I haven’t managed to pin down the loss to a specific claim yet)

29.7.44/1005 Yak-9 Possibly Kapitan Vladimir Gerogievich Shchegolev (14 kills + 3 shared), HSU, OL, 3 x ORB and OPW 2nd Class of 162 IAP, KIA over Bialystok

14.8.44/1722 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly Lt. Fyodor Ivanovich Rytov and Serzhant Andrey Egorovich Ershov of 618 ShAP, KIA near Augustow (Loeffler and Eichel-Streiber also claimed during the course of the day and again, I cannot pin the loss to a claim yet…)

20.8.44/1242 IL-2 Sturmovik mH The day’s combats are a little confusing here as well: 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date
25.8.44/0714 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly 658 ShAP, 299 ShAD. Kapitan I P Smyshlyaka shot down and Mladshiy Leytenant N V Vichkapov damaged but made it home over Vyshkuva area. (Heinz Busse also claimed)

22.9.44/1027 A-20 Boston III 1 GMTAP VVS-KBF. Losses include St.Lt. Mark Ivanovich Zhilenkov KIA, Lt. Aleksandr Fedorovich Baranov, Lt. Thepermiaks (?), Gv.Ml.Lt. Mikhail Petrovich Permyakov and Ml.Lt. Sergei Petrovich Pudov all KIA (there were 4 other claims…)

20.2.45 Yak-3 Said to be from Groupe Normandie-Niemen, 1 VA. Lieutenant Pierre Bleton. POW, escaped and returned

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Michael

Hope I'm not proved wrong, but I believe both Joachim Brendel and Gunther Josten to have been honest, as Dahl's were not even dis-honest claims but post-war fictional claims, then Josten and Brendel would be tops.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Good evening Johannes,

when did Brendel score his kill #156 ?

Cheers,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Don't know, between 14th of December 1944 and 14th January 1945, but guess you already know that. I have a feeling his flugbuch survived the war, perhaps it will surface one day.

Regards

Johannes

Another thought I had was that these Leistungsbuch papers came from the Hans Ring collection, I do know that he sometimes like to play games, he produced an abschusselist for Woidich which explains the 110 claims often quoted for him, yet his own abschusselist doesn't contain the twenty-eight claims for July 1944 that Ring included, in fact these twenty-eight claims not only do not fit the constant pattern of Woidich's claims, but JG 52 just wasn't claiming this month...…..I would guess because they were constantly moving base.
I think the huge Ring collection has started to surface in sales as Hans is now in a care home, he is a strange guy, often very friendly, and cared for his Mother who he lived with, guess she must have died, I can remember when she was 103 years old, and that's a few years ago.

See Woidich attached biography and note the(Ring)July 1944 claims(not on the mikrofilms) and see how out of place they appear.Attachment 17430

[knusel]

Good evening Johannes,

yes you mentioned that strange Woidich issue.
http://www.jg52.net/ritterkreuztraeger/franz-woidich/
What might have been the motivation of Hans Ring to do this ?

Have a good December,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Have never meet Herr Ring, but a couple of my friends have. They said he was a friendly and generous guy, so don't know what motivated him. He used to attend lots of Luftwaffe reunions, then one day somebody upset him, don't know who or what was said, but Herr Ring then stopped attending reunions, and basically stopped cooperating with Luftwaffe enthusiasts.

I can only imagine that his motivation was being tired of being constantly asked for information, so liked to play a joke or two.

I think he is still alive and living in a care home, as his Mother lived well into her hundreds then hopefully his own lifespan will be a very long one. His most wonderful documental collection seems to be being sold-off. Whereas I would like to get hold of some of this, well the biggest Luftwaffe documental collection in the World, I guess I am just happy that it's importance has been understood and it's not just been thrown in a skip somewhere.


Kind Regards


Johannes

[kaki3152]

I noticed that all the photographs attributed to Herr Ring in the original "Fighters Over Tunisia' have not been included in the new New Mediterranean series by C. Shores.

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

Dahl might have fooled Hans Ring with a faked Leistungsbuch,
Woidich's 110 kills might be a bogus of Ring himself,
do you think there is hope to clarify Kurt Tanzer's "143" kills by use of the Hans Ring collection ?
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...zer#post258122

Have a good Tuesday,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes

Johannes, would you like me to share what I have on Tanzer?