Friendly fire WWII

[Observer1940]

Hello Brian and All

From June 1941 78 Squadron Form 541, AIR 27/660/24

18/6/41
Whitley V, Z6577
Sgt Drummond
Sgt Dawson
Sgt Pratt
Sgt Adams

Time up 22.54
Time down 05.18

Target - Bremen

... "Aircraft was holed in fuselage, both wings and tail from flak fire, and enemy aircraft, the encounter taking place at 0300 hrs. at 9,000 ft."
"This aircraft is claimed as damaged by the Captain of a nearby aircraft. Weather: very little high cloud; thick ground haze."

Mark

[Observer1940]

Hello Peter

This would likely have been reported up the chain. Look in the Unit War Diary Appendices for Operational Instructions etc., with a Distribution List and take a note of other Units / Chain of Command and look up the War Diaries in the List. But no guarantee of finding anything further.

Try separate searches of 'friendly', 'own', 'identification', 'recognition', 'fire', 'firing', 'allied', etc., with year, in 'WO' and 'AIR' etc. Some General or Policy files on the subjects just mentioned, might have odd references to incidents.

A search has been on/off for 15 years for more information, about the friendly fire incident mentioned here, if you log in you can see document image:-
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=29746

'AIR' reference, search 'friendly' for '1944' gives 27 records and this gives (no guarantee of whether incident is here, or elsewhere):- AIR 37/650

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...d=1944&_ro=any

Mark

[Darius]

Hallo zusammen,

ich habe hier aus dem KTB des Seeko Narvik:

06.05.1940, Vormittags Deutsche Bombertätigkeit. 1 Bomber belegt den Narviker Hafen. Vor dem Luftschutzkeller am Malmkai trifft eine Bombe die M.A.Gfr. Teich, Tietz, Kaddatz u. 2 Matrosen. Leicht verwundet wir der M.A.Gfr. Reintrog.

Liste der Gefallenen, Vermissten und die Heimat abtransportierten Soldaten der MAA 301.

a) Gefallene:
1 M.A.Gfr. Kaddatz (Otto) 0.606/36 K
2 M.A.Gfr. Teich (Friedr.) 688/38 K
3 M.A.Gfr. Tietz (Otto) 803/34 WS

--> Am 6.5.40 durch dt. Fliegerbombe in Narvik getotet.
Am 8.5.40 auf dem Friedhof in Narvik bestattet. Holzkreuz mit Name auf Grab.

Regards

Darius

[Darius]

Hi,

KTB des Kommando der Marinestation der Nordsee for 24.09.1939:

18.50 Uhr, Meldung Fluko Wilhelmshaven, daß in der Gegend von Tönning 3 feindliche Eindecker unter Feuer genommen sind. Es stellt sich heraus, daß von der Flakartillerie der Luftwaffe eigene Flugzeuge erfolglos beschossen sind.

Regards

Darius

[Brian]

Hi Darius

Thanks for the last two postings.

My coffers are swelling!

Cheers
Brian

Frindly fire was really rare during World war Two air fighting. Many times it was only fake friendly fire incident. Pilot didnt recognise enemy aircraft and didnt know what really happend.

I have something bigger here from ma academia.edu page.

The same could happend during Baders shot down. He was probably shot down by Bf 109F, not by Casson.

I have to say as war historian I am realy tired by fake friendly fire stories based on pilots not credible testimonies. Pilots testimonies, stories etc. are not reliable even during combat, two times more after landing and TEN times not reliable after months or even years. When you are as POW in camp, you just thinking what you should do, what you did wrong whole day. Over and over again. You want to be usefull and good warrior. You just want to appologise for being shot down and you desperately want to show your success. So, you could tell people, that you definitely shot down enemy plane before being shot down himself struggling for survival....!
As war historian you MUST be suspicious and do not believe everything you hear from pilots, even if you LOVE them personaly. Pilots have very difficult situation and canʼt see much from cockpit doing maneuvres. They will tell you incredible stories based on few seconds of combat. Do not believe them a word. You must compare stories and records. Construct your theories on paper, not on STORY told you by pilot. Only, and only if, everything match together, publish your version of events! And still its only possible version of combat. You cant be sure for 100 % even if records and claims match perfectly.

Do you want example? Could anybody blame F/Lt John Charles Dundas that by shouting "I've finished a 109—Whoopee!", he did shot down one of his friends from No. 609. Squadron? Could enybody say that? I wil NOT. Its nonsence, its assumption, its not historical. What really happened? Dundas was shooting, didnt hit, but saw plane falling down. Combat is so quick, that many pilots saw one plane going down and thinking "I just killed the enemy", and It was only one aeroplane. It could be FC fighter! Did they destroyed FC Spitfire? No! They just saw plane falling down.
During combat after 16.00 over Isle of Wight on 28th November 1940 no German fighter was even hit! No. 609 Squadron lost 4 planes.
Spitfire Mk.IIA X4590/PR-F P/O Alfred Keith Ogilvie (Yellow 3) unhurt - hit in fuselage and propeller by two cannon shells and landed at 16.55. Repaired and took off again with P/O Piotr „Osti‟ Ostaszewski-Ostoja on 12th December 1940 at 13.35.
Spitfire Mk.IA X4165/PR- P/O Janusz Żurakowski unhurt - hit by cannon shell into fuselage (left plate) and landed.
Spitfire Mk.IIA R6631/PR-Q P/O Paul Abbott Baillon KIA hit by Me 109 fire somewhere near Isle of Wight. Burried at Bayeux War Cemetery.
Spitfire Mk.IIA X4586/PR-D F/Lt John Charles Dundas KIA - hit by Me 109 fire somewhere near Isle of Wight, probably south.
Suitable claims: Gefr. Friedrich Schumann (1.) z 1./JG 2, Spitfire at 17.15 Isle of Wight, Fw. Karl Pfeiffer (2., 3.) from 3./JG 2, 2xSpitfire at 17.20 and 17.21 S. Isle of Wight (OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-265B až 267B), Ltn. Julius Meimberg (8.) from 4./JG 2, Spitfire at 17.20 S. Isle of Wight (OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-104B).

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Tomas1979

As war historian you MUST be suspicious and do not believe everything you hear from pilots ... You must compare stories and records.

I think that when you have spent more time on this site you will see that most people here, several of them published authors, are well aware of that.

[Brian]

Hi Thomas

To quote: "Frindly fire was really rare during World war Two air fighting. Many times it was only fake friendly fire incident. Pilot didnt recognise enemy aircraft and didnt know what really happend."

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I have to say that I am 100% opposed to your statement. In all of my studies over the years I believe that what has so far been revealed is only the tip of the iceberg!

Cheers
Brian

[Bruce Dennis]

Tomas, I am interested in your point. Many of the contributors here are trying to establish the truth behind the conflicting details that records give us, so if you have some research to show that our research is incorrect, please share it.

Each friendly fire incident must be treated in isolation, by my logic, because not one of them was planned: each and every one was an accident. I cannot tell from your words if you believe that most of the incidents deemed to be friendly fire did not happen so I must ask: are you saying that the records are lies? If so, why would so many seperate commanders, flight leaders, intelligence officers and distraught individuals want to claim falsely that an airman had shot at one of his own?

Bruce

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Tomas, I can't agree with your statement that "Frindly fire was really rare during World war Two air fighting."

Because there are at least hundred of documented cases. Your two examples (Bader and 609 Sqn) are during actual battles vs Allied and German aircraft, and in this kind of cases it is very difficult, if not impossible, to know what have happened.
But many of the cases listed in this thread or in Brian's "Blue on Blue" book are situation when only people of one side were present, and attacked each other.