Jewish airmen in WWII

[Franek Grabowski]

Presumably in view of another conflict on the Middle East.

[Steve_Fossey]

As a first approximation I would expect that the number of Jewish aircrew in the USAAF would be the same as the percentage of the US population that was Jewish. I'm sure the information is out there somewhere, but I couldn't find it. According to this website: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html, in 2006 1.8% of the US population was Jewish. Again as a rough guess I'd say 1.8%, give or take, of USAAF aircrew would have been Jewish.

I have a list of the men in two rooms of Lager B of Stalag Luft IV. They probably represent a reasonably random sample of bomber aircrew enlisted men in the spring of 1944. Of the 51 names I would say that one is Jewish (though some others could be too) or about 2%. I have not calculated what the confidence limits on that measure are, but it is consistent with the first estimate.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

The problem is that there is both Jewish religion and Jewish nationality.

Little OT, but I'd like to differ.

IMO there is no Jewish nation only the Jewish religion. There isn't even a Jewish race. For millions of Jews the only common bond is faith*. In that sense it is not different to Catholicism.

There is however the modern State of Israel. The story behind it might however disqualify it as a "nation state". It is a recent artificial entity, which in part is the root cause behind many of its problems.

Only a hundred years ago there was a Palestinian "nation", a cultural entity living in a geographic area called Palestine. It never became a modern nation state, because it was absorbed in the creation of Israel, and it was in our Western eyes transformed to little more than a "minorities" issue.

From a purely academic point of view I don't know why one should not be allowed to discuss the validity of the modern state of Israel or right of it to exist within its current borders. But from a practical point of view I understand all the difficulties that come with it, ranging from legal to social.

Back to the subject, as there was no State of Israel in 1940, there was(were) no Israeli(s) in the Battle of Britain, but if you must it is a Palestinian of Jewish faith.

Now for a small disclaimer. Having written the above is not the same as being anti-semitic nor denying the right of Jews to live in peace, which is a natural right for all humans. But I admit that it does mean that I put question marks beside the current State of Israel, its borders and its policies towards the Palestinians.

We should never forget the Holocaust, but we should not accept blank cheques based on that remembrance (and perhaps even a sense of guilt).

*well, you might add that for millions of Jews the common bond is being American (and) or Israeli

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Steve_Fossey

As a first approximation I would expect that the number of Jewish aircrew in the USAAF would be the same as the percentage of the US population that was Jewish. I'm sure the information is out there somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

I seem to remember seeing either an Air Force or Army list with religions. IIRC it showed slightly lower relative percentage, but I can't make any definite statement. I'll look around, I may still be able to dig up these numbers.

Almost certain it was an Army Air Force statistic.

[Franek Grabowski]

Ruy
Do you consider existence of a state necessary to constitute a nation?
PS The problem with Goodman is that he was British, CoE, just born in Palestine.

[Ruy Horta]

With Goodman, if he he held a British nationality, he was British (born in Palestine).

Without historical context one is likely to transpose the situation of the modern Israeli state, now being a relatively homogenous cultural entity, with the situation in the first half of the twentieth century and the early decades of its existence. This is as wrong as regarding Israel through the distorting lens of Biblical times and the Bible.

So no, a nation can exist without state (although you can have a Jewish State, as much as you can have an Islamic or Catholic states etc), but IMHO a nation cannot be based on faith.

Of course one can argue that the Jewish faith comes with Jewish culture and shared culture brings you closer to a nation. But is that really a unique feature of the Jewish faith?

Should I not regard an American, German or Hungarian of Jewish faith not first and foremost as a American, German or Hungarian etc?

[Theodor]

And the thread will dig even deeper, if we go on to that Christianity and Islam are in fact branches of the old Judaism. One would think these things belong to the past, long gone. Unfortunately the simple fact that the Christianity and Islam come from the Judaism, has been a damnation since the Dark ages. The whole problem is, the three mentioned religions worship one and the same group of "patriarchs" and one and the same holly places. This caused lots of trouble through the whole history and most surprising and annoying, it still causes great problem even now and today. The struggle of the islamic countries to get rid of Israel /which spreads over the holly lands/ and in the same time the struggle of Israel to kick the islamic mosques and priests from the most holly hill... And the rest of the world deeply involved in that regional quarrel... I really do not intend to hurt the religions of the readers, but the world was going to be a safer and cooler place, if there were no religions /or at least not such fanatics within the different religions/. Sorry for the OT, just my 2 euroC.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Should I not regard an American, German or Hungarian of Jewish faith not first and foremost as a American, German or Hungarian etc?

No. They are actually Jews from America, Germany or Hungary (of course, it's up to everyone to define themselves the way he/she wants).

Besides religion there is a Jewish ethnicity, including distinct language and culture. In most Central and East European states the Jewish ethnicity is officially recognised and one can identify him-/herself as such during national census.

P.S. Your listing is a bit flawed, as opposite to German and Hungarian, there is no American ethnicity, per se.

[Franek Grabowski]

I think Denes cleared it in the best possible way, so I think I have nothing to add, but perhaps a comment about religion(s). That happens, that most cruel mass crimes originated in countries ruled by regimes rejecting religion, and fighting it in every possible way. This include crimes of the French Revolution, Communism, Nazism or Young Turks. So I would say, the life in the religious world would be much easier.