Lockheed Hudson

[CJE]

The Lockheed Hudson had no place for a co-pilot.
Had the navigator some kind of dual controls at his disposal to bring the craft home and have it land had the pilot been put out of action?

Thanks.

Chris

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
From what I remember reading the Navigator helped in the early models but later it seems there was also a co-pilot, then perhaps that was only the American Force ?
Alex

[vingtor]

The (ex. RAF) Hudsons that were operated by BOAC on the Stockholm Run were retrofitted with dual controls. So this was apparently not standard for RAF.

Nils

[CJE]

"Viewed from the cockpit", as would have said the late "Winkle" Brown, there was no room for a second pilot.
However, with a crew of 5, I cannot imagine that the Hudson Mk. I had no emergency devices for the navigator to nurse the craft back home or ditch if the pilot had been killed.
Indeed, some Hudsons (civilian or trainers) were fitted with dual controls, but that's not my point.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Chris

All the early Lockheed twins had double control, including the Super Electra and Hudson.

I don't think the second control was discarded, but the seating facilities was very much reduced. I have never been inside one so I don't know exactly what it looked like, but if you have Air International Nov 1985 on page 244-45 there is a cutaway drawing which shows what it looked like. Judging from that drawing the arrangement must have been very uncomfortable for anyone trying to pilot anything from that position. So I would say that Eric Brown was both right and wrong in his remembrance. The reason for the arrangement was of course with the Hudson you needed access to the nose.
Possibly (I don't know that), you could rather easily take out the second controls/seating altogether, but, if so, the drawing does not depict that.

With regard to your essential question, I have no answer since I don't know the training criteria in Coastal Command. Logic (and my survival instincts) would say yes, the Navigator had hopefully at least some flying experience. He would at least be the logical choice, since he (again hopefully ) knew where they were and would also know where they should be going.

Cheers
Stig

[Graham Boak]

It was completely normal for RAF bombers to have only the single pilot. It would be necessary for the other crew member to remove the injured pilot before attempting to take over control. This must have been much easier in the Hudson than the Hampden or Mosquito - or indeed the Boston. The Hampden required that the back of the seat be lowered and the pilot slid out backwards. I suspect the Hampden was the only British-designed bomber to lack a dual-control variant, whereas the Hudson clearly has the capability.

Many navigators were students who had failed the piloting course at some stage and been retrained, so would possess some ability to bring the aircraft back. However in the Hampden and Boston he would be inaccessible in the nose.

[Orwell1984]

Standard operational crew for the Hudson was usually 4 and often included a crew member designated as 'second pilot' . If you google "Lockheed Hudson" and "second pilot" you'll see it mentioned frequently. This was obviously an advantage for Coastal Command and RAAF Hudsons where longer distances on patrol were flown. The books RAAF Hudson story Parts one and two mention second pilots as crew members often and there's also a mention here:
http://www.epibreren.com/ww2/raf/269_squadron.html

269 was one of the early RAF Hudson units. As can be seen from the losses, the crew carried normally was 4. The most common breakdown for crew tasks I've seen was as follows: Pilot, Second Pilot/Navigator/Bomb Aimer, Wireless Operator, Gunner.
So the standard issue was one multitasker per plane

As to how the issue of a second pilot was handled an indication is given in here:
http://press-files.anu.edu.au/downlo.../pdf/ch161.pdf
which looks at the crash of Hudson A16-97

Settling into the cockpit of Hudson A16-97, Bob Hitchcock, his small suitcase
stowed, was secure in a dual-purpose harness. His ‘QC (quick connection)
seat type’ parachute allowed for interchangeability with the second pilot or navigator

So cockpit gymnastics were the order of the day if a pilot needed to be relieved/replaced.

As mentioned dual controls were available for the Hudson and used for training purposes.
http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a16.htm
is a list of RAAF Hudsons in which can be noted a number of the early serials had dual controls and were rushed into combat due to the need for aircraft. However you can also find notations for aircraft having the dual controls removed [A16-11, A16-15, A16-17].

[Stig Jarlevik]

Graham/Orwell

Thanks. Seems to confirm the Hudson could both keep and discard its second control system, as I thought.

Also thanks for confirming the ability of a second person in the crew to have at least some sort of piloting skills. All very logic.

Cheers
Stig

[CJE]

Thanks to all.
Most interesting!

Chris

[Juha]

All I can add that according to Hendrie's Seek and Destroy.The Lockheed Hudson in World War II (1983) CC Hudsons had at first 2 pilots but later on a Navigator was included in place of the co-pilot.