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  #21  
Old 14th February 2010, 22:02
Pim-Pouw Pim-Pouw is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Saunders View Post
It seems from Huub's useful post that insofar as the Netherlands are concerned this must be an open and shut case .
I wouldn't agree with this conclusion. The degree mentioned by Huub Vink : Radiation protection Decree (Besluit Stralingsbescherming) is there to protect employees. An employee works for an employer. An employer can be ofcourse a company but also a foundation with volunteers.

This degree in the case of Radium regulates the following:

- First it is no longer permitted to make new instruments with Radium.

- Second to store them you have to keep the radiation level for your employees within certain limits.

- Third maintenance. This will in our case means opening the radium contained instruments, special regulations are there for this case.

Back to an individual. He doesn't work for an employer so this degree doen's aplly to him and therefore he cannot ask for a permit. Think for example of asbetos. Companies have to comply with strict regulations about how to handle this stuff. An individual with a shed with an asbestos roof plates is not in any violation.

Now back to Liad van Praag. The police said to him : They told me that they will place it in concrete and dump it somewhere and that it can't pass the Dutch border anymore.

So probably he is being charged of transporting dangerous goods across the border. Although this is maybe true for his P51 panel , it isn't for the rest of his collection which he probaly obtained within the Europeen borders.

I am not happy for Liad van Praag. But I am happy that this case is going to apear in court. Once there is an verdict , we as collectors in the Netherlands will finally now what we are dealing with.

my 2 cents on this case,

Pim
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  #22  
Old 14th February 2010, 22:44
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Hi,

Not being an expert on this subject and not a collector of such items...

Is it not possible to remove the radium(or wathever substance) from the instruments, so that they are (almost) radium-free and no longer to be considered as dangerous ?


Best regards

Luc
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  #23  
Old 14th February 2010, 23:26
Huub Vink Huub Vink is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

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Originally Posted by Pim-Pouw View Post
I wouldn't agree with this conclusion. The degree mentioned by Huub Vink : Radiation protection Decree (Besluit Stralingsbescherming) is there to protect employees.
Hi Pim, nice to meet you here as well, but I think you are wrong here. This Decree is much wider than just the employer- employee relation (In fact only chapter 7 covers occupational exposure.)

It contains the legal requirements for possession (het voor handen hebben) en working with and manufacturing (handelingen en vervaardigen), storage is seen as "working with" however storage in relation to transport isn't. The decree provides even the requirements the medical world must meet when they expose their patient to radiation.

The main reason behind this is that in the Netherlands radiation is not covered by the Enviromental Act (Wet Millieubeheer) and the Dangerous Goods Act (Wet Millieu gevaarlijke stoffen, see Article 3 from this Act). Therefore the Nuclear(energy) Act" (Kernenergiewet) and the Radiation protection Decree cover all aspects of radiation.

The base on which possession is illegal is Article 29 from the Nuclear Act, which refers to the substances defined in the Decree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc Vervoort View Post
Is it not possible to remove the radium(or wathever substance) from the instruments, so that they are (almost) radium-free and no longer to be considered as dangerous ?
It is possible, however you this will be costly and can only be done by experts. And you should wonder whether the instrument still has its value as "original". I can't remember which organisation did was, but a historical organisation replaced all Radium painted dails in their aircrafts by photografic repoductions.

Regards,
Huub
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  #24  
Old 14th February 2010, 23:33
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Pim

An interesting post!

So, it isn't straightforward after all. I suppose that shouldn't surprise any of us.

In the UK if one operated a business or undertaking (lets say self employed) then there is a legal duty placed upon that person under Section 3 of the Health & Safety at Work Act not to do anything that might affect the health, safety or welfare of persons not in ones employment. So, selling items that may contain radium and are likely to cause harm to a person not in ones employment (ie a customer or potential customer) would be an offence - and that is quite aside from anything laid down in the Ionising Radiations Regs. There is already a ban on such sales via e-bay and in placing any such material in the postal service.

Clearly, and quite apart from how businesses (including museums!) might have an affect on a third party, there could also be public health issues to neighbours, family, visitors, tradesmen etc who may be invited onto a property where there are radioactive substances kept by a collector/dealer.

It is all a minefield. A radioactive one!!

Last edited by Andy Saunders; 15th February 2010 at 00:47.
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  #25  
Old 15th February 2010, 01:47
Larry Larry is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

How many collectors of WW2 aircraft instruments have died of radiation poisoning in the last 65 years I wonder? None I'm sure!

There's more risk to the collector from being killed by an aircraft panel falling from the top shelf in his garage or God forbid if he cuts his finger on a nasty sharp bit of metal and dies of blood poisoning!

When I think of all the simple things I did as a lad that now are classed as dangerous by the Heath & Safety 'industry' it makes me sad for my children. People need to get a grip with reality and for the future make sure laws that are used to protect us from real nuclear threats are not used to make a criminal out of a collector. But then that's going to be very hard, as someone recently said you cannot legislate for 450 million Europeans without getting it wrong for someone most of the time.
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  #26  
Old 15th February 2010, 01:51
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Larry

For the avoidance of doubt.....I am entirely with you!

Just in case my previous post gave the impression I was toeing the 'elf n safety line. I was just trying to say how it is out there, and not how it ought to be!
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  #27  
Old 15th February 2010, 02:01
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stephen f. polyak stephen f. polyak is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Legally, none of this appears "cut-and-dried”, one size fits all. Let's hope not at least.

Can’t imagine the Dutch officials who prepared the laws and regulations being discussed/interpreted here considered this sort of situation - a privately-owned collection of vintage items (with both monetary and historic value) holding relatively small amounts of sealed radium. No one has cited sections that absolutely apply. The brush is broad. This has to be worked through the court(s). And the community needs to be prepared for the outcome - good or bad - as, likely, it will eventually reach beyond Liad and the Netherlands.

The first thing that should happen it to restrain any harm to the items until a ruling is reached. The police enforce law, they do not make or litigate it. I doubt the law simply says confiscate radioactive material and then dress it in concrete and check it into a landfill. (Not only would radium be buried, but history.)

Could the instruments be assumed by one or more museums (in and/or outside the Netherlands); it sounded above like display exceptions are permitted in that country and are not (yet) needed in others? Will Liad be compensated if ownership is lost; could he retain a form of ownership through a museum holding transfer?

Minefields are hazardous, but, in time, they can be cleared. Here, one wonders how many collector casualties there will be in the process.
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Last edited by stephen f. polyak; 15th February 2010 at 03:08.
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  #28  
Old 15th February 2010, 04:32
harrison987 harrison987 is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Question...

Did they have a warrant to enter your apartment? Or did they simply show up, and ask the property owner to let them in?

If no warrant, than here in the US, it is called ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE. You would then get the items back, and they would have no case.

I think the comment "burying them in concrete so they not pass the Dutch border", sounds pretty irresponsible. Is it me, or is that a strange way to deal with radium? IF they do that, they have to post a SIGN to everyone who walks over that area that it contains Radioactive Material, and then protect every single person who walks near it...

The fact is, YOU ar the OWNER of those items. I would try to work out a way to save the instruments...come to some sort of agreement to let them be displayed in a museum, but still have them belonging to you....SOMETHING that stps these from becoming destroyed. Tell them you'll accept whatever "charges" they come up with, IF they save the instruments from destruction.

We are talking about HISTORY here...not just personal belongings.

I don't understand why after Customs opened the box and SAW an instrument panel, they came to some conclusion that you were a health risk, and came to your apartment to confiscate things. None of that makes ANY sense.

Usually there has to be some sort of proof and reasoning for them to enter. They should have just sent the panel back to where it came from, or contacted you directly. I do not understand the correlation between, "they guy imported an WW2 instrument Panel"...to "this guy is DANGEROUS, this one instrument panel full of radium must mean he has a FULL apartment of instuments...we MUST confiscate everything he has!!"

...seems very odd.

There is radiation in EVEYRTHING...and smoking kills more people in 1 year...

How many museums HAVE raidum instruments, and DO NOT display signage to indicate such? if they are SOOOOOOOOOO dangerous as they are claiming, why does NO museum warn ALL visiters of potential raidum side-effects if they come to the museum...?

gggggggggrrrrrrrr
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  #29  
Old 15th February 2010, 17:09
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

This has been sent to me by a major player in the historic warbird field in light of recent events. I post it without further comment (and with his permission) save to say that it may provoke some more useful and informed debate on this forum:

Ex-military Instruments with Radium (luminous) Dials.
Below is a short dissertation on the subject, written not by a specialist, but an aircraft restorer with an enquiring mind and is based on published data easily accessible.

Dealing with any instrument containing Radium 226, is fraught with dangers and it must be clearly understood there is no known safe limit of the radiation emitted. The Dutch collector who had his many instrument panels confiscated may have had his life saved. Read on and see why.

The luminous paint is made up of three main constituents, including the subject material Radium, which reacts with another compound in the paint creating the luminous effect; there is also a binder in the material to hold it together in the form of paint. It decays to a light/dark brown colour over age and is usually quite easy to spot in an instrument.

This element, Radium (Ra) with the atomic number 88, is 1,000 times more radioactive than Uranium; it is one of the most radioactive elements known to mankind. The isotope Ra-226 has a half-life of some 1600 years and decays into Radon gas.

Radium emits Alpha, Beta and Gamma rays. The glass will stop the Alpha particles (very dangerous), and most of the Beta, but the Gamma(also potentially dangerous)can only be stopped with a thick layer of lead. Radon gas will also be present but will dissipate in a ventilated environment. The radiation damages living cells and is absorbed into the bones, as there is a similarity to calcium but the body cannot differentiate between the two elements in the processing of ingested material. The greatest danger is the dust that is released when the instrument is disturbed; breathe it in and you will be building up serious trouble for your health. The dust will contain Alpha particles which, once free can do the greatest damage if absorbed by the body. I quote from Wikipedia on the subject: ”Because of the high mass and strong absorption, if Alpha emitting radio-nuclides do enter the body (if the radioactive material has been inhaled or ingested), they are the most destructive form of ionizing radiation….and large enough doses can cause any of the symptoms of radiation poisoning…. etc”. Well worth a read if you are in any doubt of what you are dealing with.

As can be seen, the greatest danger is the ingestion of the dust from a broken instrument, or by the casual removal of the luminous paint. As far as is known there is no facility for removing this material and in anycase it will have irradiated the material around it. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should these instruments be kept in your home – especially a bedroom, and concentrations of individual instruments should never be greater than 25-30.

We have all dismantled these instruments at some stage and while it is not known how little contamination is ‘safe’, it should be assumed that ‘nothing at all’ should be the base line. Obviously, the closer you are to the source, the greater the danger and of course the duration of exposure is relevant.

So – what next? There is a remote danger of terrorists buying up quantities of these instruments, removing the radium in dust form - ensuring by doing so their imminent passage to the thereafter - mixing with a drying clay or similar and packing around a conventional explosive device. They won’t be bothered with making a nuclear bomb from these minute quantities of radioactive material, but making a so-called ‘dirty bomb’ scattering this dust and causing mayhem in the process, as the cleaning up will be a very long and expensive process. We must all therefore be aware of this and be careful who buys the instruments if you sell them. There is certainly a duty of care if nothing else, as if – God forbid – a dirty bomb was set off in a sensitive public area, then our hobby of old aviation may be over in a flash (not a nuclear one but a legislative one!).






That’s the bad news, but is there any good? Are we allowed to possess these instruments? Under the Atomic Energy and Radioactive Substances Act (1985 no.1048) The Radioactive Substances (Luminous Articles) Exemption Order 1985, it seems possibly so, providing the maximum number of Becquerel (per instrument) does not exceed certain limits. There are other conditions and one is that the source is kept behind glass and there are also restrictions on disposal. Under UK law it seems that the collector in Holland may have been allowed to keep his panels, but from a practical point of view he was playing with fire. There are common sense rules, not just the law of the land that you need to take heed of. You also need to be aware that some of the earliest instruments from the 1st World War for example – have the greatest concentrations of this compound.

Be aware – there are many radiation meters available on e-bay, but the vast majority are surplus items that are either broken or inaccurate, or mainly designed to detect the results of an atomic explosion or a major accident (such as Chernobyl) and are therefore not necessarily suitable for holding against your Spitfire instrument to see how many Becquerel are being emitted. Take advice first and research it before clicking that ever-so tempting ‘Buy Now” button!

From a practical point of view I hope that the authorities – when they are made aware of the extent of the problem – and believe me they are watching us all the time – will be tolerant of Warbird operators, and providing the cockpit canopy is left open to allow the Radon gas to disperses, little else is required. Servicing the instruments though is another matter, and precautions will have to be met. In order to exceed the Act above, a licence will probably have to be obtained, unless the entire process is kept behind glass.

On a final note – do be aware that this is not the definitive word on the subject and this is a guide only – do the research first if you are concerned.
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  #30  
Old 15th February 2010, 23:00
Pim-Pouw Pim-Pouw is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Hi Huub,

Started to read the Nuclear(energy) Act" (Kernenergiewet) , this mention a limit of 10e5 Becquerel for Radium. I found a document which puts a wristwatch at aprox a maximum of 0.2 uCu which would put it within the limit but an aircraft instrument will use a lot more radium.

Have you ever done measurements on aircraft instruments ?

I slightly disagree with your conclusions about "working with" is the same as storage and the same as possesion. If we take Mercury as an example. You are allowed possesion of this material, but if you store it in such a way that it will harm your surroundings , that is nature , people , animals etc you will be in violation of the enviromental act.


Please correct me if I am wrong.

Greetings, Pim
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