Help Required II./ JG 27 North Africa 1942

[maccullagh]

Hi,

I need information on II./ JG 27 and pilot Obfw. Erich Krenzke nad BF 109 Werknumber 8774.

I beleive Erich was shot down and captured 31 May 1942.

I require any photos of him or his unit and plane to allow me to confirm the identity of a BF 109 in a photo I have.

Any colour information of the unit markings and plane would be appreciated.

Thanks

[robert]

Hi,

there are 3 photos of him and his plane in Prien`s "Bf109 im Einsatz bei der II/JG27":
- the first is on the page no.168 and shows him on the wing of his plane and was taken on 24 September 1941 shortly prior the take-off from Doeberitz to Italy (no number visible on the photo)
- the second is on the page 189 and shows the belly-landed black 5 somewhere in the desert taken in winter 1941/42
- the third belongs to the well known photo set taken by PK man on Martuba airfield in spring 1942 (page no. 198 ) and shows black 5 among others planes of the 5.staffel

Regards

Robert

[maccullagh]

Thanks Robert,

Your information is very much appreciated.

Your information throws a spanner into my works as I have information from 2 other sources that say Erich flew Yellow 9.

I have been chasing the identity of this plane for nearly 20 years and have been astounded by how close I have come but have been missing just that last vital bit of information.

For example I have not been able to find another plane with the same markings. I have looked at thousands of photos and when I think I might have something there has always been a bit of the markings obscured.

Your information adds to the intrigue of this plane and pilot and it will be interesting when we finally solve it.

In my photo I think it is yellow 9 going by the light colour of the 9 compared to the black of the country symbol but I can not determine the colour of the horizontal Gruppe bar on the fuselage. it is of a darker colour than the 9 but does not match the black.

Could you indicate where I could get a copy of the document your refer to that has the photos.

Thanks again.

Rick

[robert]

Hi,


the bar is red. It was common for this unit in this period to paint red bars by all Staffel.
Unfortunately I don`t have a scaner so I can`t drop you this photos.
The book could be order by e.g. Christian Schmidt Fachbuchhandlung or directly by Struve Druck. When you are interested for this unit I suggest you to buy it because it has a plenty of informations and photos.

Regards

Robert

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

The markings were in my opinion 'Yellow 9 + -'.

The original loss record is as follows:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=107636

(from Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. Nr. 4120/42 g.Kdos.(IC), 10.06.1942, Lfd.Nr 19 as you can see)

and my guess is that the Namentliche Verlustemeldung will verify this.

So if you have a photograph of a Bf 109 F-4 with trop filter, yellow 9 code, white tailband and a dark horizontal bar, it is definitely LIKELY that you have the correct one.

However... there would probably have been more than one similarly marked aircraft in the theatre, and the only bulletproof 'evidence' would be the ability to read the aircraft WNr (if it was correctly recorded and reported that is!!! )

Regards,
Andreas

[maccullagh]

Thank you Robert and Andeas.

I think it is about time that I post the photo (but I do not know how to).

The photo has my father standing near the BF 109 and he obscures the area from the country symbol, white theatre band and the group bar, all of which are only partly visible.

From what I can deduce is that the theatre band is touching the country symbol at the rear and the gruppe bar travels from or through the theatre band towards the rudder or rear of the fuselage.

I have not seen another plane with these markings until I saw BF 109G-2 of 11/JG 51 which was based in Sardinia, summer 1943. this plane has a Yellow 7 and the gruppe bar is yellow (Axis Aircraft Of World War II, David Mondey, Page 171).

Most other planes of II/ JG 27 that I have seen have the theatre band further towards the rudder with the Gruppe bar travelling through the band towards the country symbol, that is forward.

What makes me sure that it is Yellow 9 is the pale colour of the 9 which is bound by a black outline. Although I agree with Robert that the Gruppe bar is red , I have not seen any illustration that shows the Gruppe bar outlined in black as it is in my photo, which has been taken from the starboard side.

What I should do is tell my old man to move a couple of metres to the left so we could see all of the details, but I think I might be 64 years to late for that one.....

Again I thank you for the information and help that you have given.

I will post photo as soon as I can.

Rick

[maccullagh]

I have attached my photo that I require information about.

Location is Lybia 1942, El Adam.

I need to identify the BF 109.

Any information that you have would be appreciated.

thank

Rick

[robert]

Hi Rick,

I looked into the loss list of II/JG27 and Krenzke is the best match for this loss. So we could be almost sure that on this location (El-Adem) this is the yellow 9 of Krenzke.


Regards

Robert

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

I feel that this thread needs some clarification. The topic is a photo of a belly landed Bf 109 F-4 trop and the question is, whether this was the a/c of Obfw. Erich Krenzke of 6./JG 27.

To begin with: The photo that we are talking about here does show the a/c Obfw. Erich Krenzke flew on May 31st, 1942, when he was forced to belly land after aerial combat in the area of Acroma / El Adem, this being Bf 109 F-4 trop, WerkNr. 8774. It is thus a very useful addition to the already existing stock of photos of II./JG 27. At the time of the loss the area around El Adem was still in British hands, so that the captioning we have seen makes sense. Remarkable however is the thick long overcoat of the soldier in front of the a/c, unusual for the time of year.

What is notable about this a/c is the white fuselage band around fuselage section 6, completely unusual for II./JG 27 at this stage of the aerial war in North Africa. The vast majority of a/c - in fact all that so far have been secured in photographical evidence - had their fuselage band around section 7.

I cannot see what relevance the photos of "black 5" of 5./JG 27 shown in both the II./JG 27 chronicle and the JFV series Vol. 8 / I should have in this context as stated by one contributor. I never stated that " black 5 " of 5./JG 27 had anything to do with Erich Krenzke. I would also object to the statement, that all three Staffeln of II./JG 27 had a red horizontal Gruppen bar; in fact, only 5./JG 27 had a red bar together with its black numerals, whereas the Gruppen bars of 4. and 6./JG 27 were in the respective Staffel-colours white or yellow. In my opinion the Gruppen bar of " yellow 9 " here in question was definitely yellow, not red.

Anyway - I think we can file the photo we're offered here as the mount of Obfw. Erich Krenzke of 6./JG 27 after it was shot down on May 31st, 1942 near El Adem.

Regards

Jochen Prien

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all.

As one can clearly see that the aircraft in question has been given a 'going over' by souvenir hunters (the cowling is gone, the tail swastika has been cut out), isn't it possible that the photograph has been taken a long time after the incident itself happened? As Jochen Prien indicates, the heavy long overcoat seems a bit much in the desert in summer??

Regards,
Andreas