Ju 86 P loss(es) on 15 April 1941 in Ukraine

[Juha]

The LW lost one Ju 86 P over Ukraina on 15 April 1941. According to David Kahn’s Hitler’s Spies (1978) the LW lost two planes during their clandestine photo recon operations over the USSR, one of them a Ju 86 with pressurized cabin, which suffered sustained engine trouble at 39,000 ft and descended to 16,000, whence Soviet fighters forced it down.
According to Timin, Mikhail, Air Battles over the Baltic 1941 (2018) Junkers Ju 86 P was forced to make an emergency landing in the area around Rivne on 15 April 1941. According to Bergström, Christer, Barbarossa - The Air Battle: July–December 1941 (2007) on 15 April 1941 a Ju 86 P crash landed near Rovno and inclement weather forced down another Ju 86 P near Vinnitsa. Rivne/ Rovno is about 220 km NW of Vinnytsia/Vinnitsa, and Rivne Raion 255 – 204 km NW of Vinnytsia.
Did the LW lost two Ju 86 Ps on 15 April 1941 and did Soviet fighters play an active role in one of the cases?

TIA
Juha

[Larry deZeng]

Juha -

4.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L.
(Unit Code T5 + )

On 15 April 1941, Ju 86P (D-APEW) operating from Kraków experienced engine trouble while on a photo reconnaissance mission to the Kiev-Zhitomir area and came down near Rovno/W Ukraine. The crew was captured and taken to Rovno, but later liberated from Soviet captivity by advancing German troops at the end of June 1941.

[Sources:
T.Rowehl-Chronik, held by Militär Geschichtliche Forschungsamt (MGFA); G.Thomas and B.Ketley – KG 200: The Luftwaffe’s Most Secret Unit (Hikoki Pub. Ltd, 2003); C.Shores - Fledgling Eagles: The Complete Account of Air Operations During the ‘Phony War’ and Norwegian Campaign, 1940; F.K.Mason - Battle Over Britain; W.G.Ramsey (ed.) - The Blitz, Then And Now, 3 volumes; BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs); NARA WashDC: RG 242 (various rolls from T-312, T-313, T-321 and T-971); W.Horst (president of the Aufklärungsflieger veterans association in Germany) – personal correspondence with the author, 1994-96); web site ww2.dk.]

There is no mention in any of the sources above about a second Ju 86 P coming down at Vinnitsa on 15 April 1941.

Larry deZ.

[Juha]

Hello Larry
Thanks a lot for the info!
So only one loss and probably purely by technical reason without any active role by Soviet air defenses.

Juha

[Tom Willis]

The W/Nr was 5141 and the crew were the pilot was Uffz.Schnetz and the rest of the crew were made POWs

[Juha]

Hello Tom, thanks a lot for the info!
IIRC at least Schnetz survived the war.

Juha

[Leendert]

Just to add that observer's name was Uffz. Rudolf/Rudolph Walther.

Regards, Leendert

[Juha]

Hello Leendert
thanks for the extra info!

Juha

[Chris Going]

Hello Juha, Larry, and Co.

There’s visual evidence of strenuous Soviet efforts to counter one, at least, of these overflights at just this time. If you have a look at Roy Stanley’s 'World War II Photo intelligence' Photo 3-10, page 75, (Sidgewick & Jackson 1982) he reproduces a vertical image taken ‘SW of Vilnius’ on 17 April 1941 which shows a Soviet I-153 pacing the reconnaissance aircraft. According to Stanley the aircraft tracks the high flying a/c for a distance of c 150 Kms. I’ve looked through the SIS plots in the US but can't find a sortie candidate I’m happy with yet. ObdL plots preserved in TsAMO include one sortie (SU 1441) dated 17 April 1941. This may be the one. More when I know more.
Best
ChrisG

[Juha]

Hello Chris
Thanks a lot for the info!
I don’t have a copy of that Stanley’s book, even if I have some books on the photo intelligence, even Stanley’s ‘To Fool A Glass Eye’ but yes, Soviet fighter pilots were not allowed to shoot down German PR planes but IIRC were at some point allowed to try to persuade them to land. Timin in his Timin, Mikhail, Air Battles over the Baltic 1941 (Warwick: Helion, 2018) only mentions that after 10 April 1941 the German recon activity over the Baltic region dropped sharply. “In total over the course of one or two days flights were only recorded on 11, 12, 17 and 18 April and on 8 May.” But he mentioned that one reason for that was the transfer of German recon activity to a zone comprising the Western Special Military District, and the Kiev Special Military District. Active operations over the Baltic region resumed from the end of May.
In the book there is a map giving the German penetrations into the Soviet airspace over Lithuania and Latvia which were observed by Soviets from 1 January to 10 April 1941. It gives plane types, dates and times and flight paths. In the text he gives descriptions of the flights between 24 January and 5 March 1941 (9 flights, giving a/c type or as unidentified and its route, all interception attempts were unsuccessful but the last plane was fired upon by AA artillery) and between 3 and 10 April (22 flights, a/c type, altitude, routes, Soviet reactions, now interceptions were sometimes successful, but German planes turned away when they saw the Soviet fighters, in one case on 5 April, ‘He 111’ H=4.000 Soviet fighters fired 20 warning burst of mg-fire while the German plane flew out to sea and in one case 17 fighters were sent to intercept a Do 17 at 4.000 m which turned away when encountering the Soviet fighters). On the 15 April Ju 86 P case I found this

Mirek Wawrzynski 18th December 2013 20:41 Re: Ju-86P and R losses

15 Apr 41 D-APEW shot down VVS fighters crew POW later escapes

It was force landing not shot down due to eginge failure, one owa earlier switch off. Of course Ju 86 was detected and chatched by Soviet pilot from 46. IAP on I-16. Pilot did not open fire to it or "victim". Plane forece landed on Soviet territory near Równo (ex-Polish town). From the thread Ju-86P and R losses http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=36176

Juha

[Karoband]

Hi Juha,

A number of years ago I found the following information about 15 June 1941 on a Russian language website and using Google-translate tried to decipher the information. This is my take on what it said:

Lejt. Schounov of 46 IAP as Flight Commander in a MiG-3 forced the Ju 86P down in the Kiev Special Military District. The crew was interned but released before the invasion.

Sen. Lejt. Alekseyev shot down a Ju 88 over Vinnitsa.

Hopefully, the Russian experts on this forum can either verify or declare this spurious.

Best regards,

Jim