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  #1  
Old 24th January 2017, 15:04
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hello all

Years ago,I read that in 1945,the destruction of a "panzer" was equivalent to an aerial victory.

What is the reality of this story:an "urban legend"?

Peter Duttmann is usually credited with two destroyed "panzer",the one claimed on 03/04/45 is counted as "luftsieg" ?

michel
regards
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  #2  
Old 28th January 2017, 20:21
natttuppen natttuppen is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Not listed as a claim in the book by Johannes Mathews and John Foreman: Luftwaffe Aces Biographies and Victory Claims volume 1.
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  #3  
Old 29th January 2017, 00:11
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is online now
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi,

None of the tanks or other ground targets destroyed by Peter Düttmann were included in his aerial victory tally. His 139th victory on 19 March 1945 was a La-5, he then claimed various trucks and tanks destroyed and a Mustang without witness, and his 140th aerial victory came on 5 April 1945, an Il-2 m.H. None of the ground targets listed as destroyed in his Flugbuch are included in his victory tally.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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Old 29th January 2017, 04:55
Russ Fahey Russ Fahey is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hello Andy,

It would seem that Düttmann did consider the 2 destroyed tank claims as part of his victory total. In his leistungsbuch, Düttmann records 150 confirmed victories against airplanes, and 2 confirmed victories against tanks, to arrive at his total of 152 victories. Incidentally, he also claimed 1 unconfirmed tank destroyed, as well as 42 unconfirmed (ohne zeugen) victories against airplanes.

Here are the 2 pages of Peter Düttmann's leitungsbuch documenting his panzer victories and his victory total.

Russ
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File Type: jpg Düttmann LB Panzer abschusse.jpg (198.8 KB, 118 views)
File Type: jpg Düttmann LB abschusse total.jpg (201.7 KB, 105 views)
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  #5  
Old 29th January 2017, 06:41
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is online now
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi Russ,

Indeed, but the tally written immediately after his final flight in the Flugbuch does not include the tanks, and limits his aerial victory claims to 150 aircraft, with the two tanks listed separately. Also, the tanks aren't tallied in the Flugbuch, with it ending at 150 for the final aircraft. Is there a chance the list in the Leistungsbuch is post-war? And thanks again for sending me the copy of this document.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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Old 29th January 2017, 16:53
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

In summary,it seems that this "legend" that the destruction of a tank equivalent to an aerial victory in 1945, does not rest on anything serious.

Thank you very much for your answer.

michel
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Old 29th January 2017, 17:48
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Juha Juha is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hello

Maybe a stupid question, but what was the function of Leitungsbuch?

TIA
Juha
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  #8  
Old 6th July 2018, 09:21
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Good morning Russ,

cool item !
Can we agree that he who talks about 152 Düttmann kills means 150 aircraft and 2 tanks ?
http://www.jg52.net/ritterkreuztraeger/peter-duttmann/

Have a nice weekend,

Michael
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Old 6th July 2018, 11:20
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hi Guys

It is fact that 1945 panzer destruction counted as "luftsieg", so not urban legend. However John Foreman and myself did not consider a tank able to fly, therefore we did not include them in Luftwaffe pilots totals. Georg-Peter Eder also included three tanks in his total so Düttmann was not alone. Düttmann himself had many unconfirmed claims, and a few he thought were confirmed were not, this reduced his total to 147 confirmed and 45 unconfirmed.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 6th July 2018, 15:19
Russ Fahey Russ Fahey is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

Hello Michael & Johannes,

Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel View Post
Good morning Russ,

cool item !
Can we agree that he who talks about 152 Düttmann kills means 150 aircraft and 2 tanks ?



Have a nice weekend,

Michael
Yes!!

But based on Johannes expertise regarding luftwaffe claims, I would think his total for Düttman is more accurate.

Regards,

Russ
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