THEN & NOW - ERRORS - PM-N

[Iain Torrance]

Regarding Peter’s request for me to post my concerns on attribution of T&N photos – ‘HA-R’ in the trees at page 272 is one of the photos I have concerns with (see separate thread) here’s three others;.

Page 269 is PM-N the 103 Squ Beardsley plane. Agree that PM-N is Beardsley but it is not L5516; that is another crash. I’ve seen a clear photo of the L5516 serial no on another wreck.. The PM-N is, at best, L5??6 – I looked through all the Battle File listings and L5446 looks the most likely, but it is not recorded as ever having been in France. Anybody got a clearer PM-N image?

At page 247, bottom left, the photo is of a 218 Squ plane HA-J the Horner crash, not P2193 of 103 Squ. Topography is very similar reflected in the reported proximity of the crash sites but the wreck configuration (see page 245) is radically different and the ‘A’ of the HA-J codes (albeit upside down) is clearly readable in this photo.

Bottom page 331 is the much photographed Berry-au-Bac wrecks (see page 295 for different angle)

T&N is a huge body of data but given that size it is perhaps inevitable there will be many reader’s issues with the content!! Still there will doubtless be all the enthusiast reader corrections for a profitable 2nd edition – inevitably to be bought by those enthusiasts (us) !! No matter, as Peter says, at the end of the day the most important thing is getting things right, and not jumping to conclusions.

[Pieter H]

Iain,

I think you are right about the PM-N!
I have a picture (from an Ebay auction) which seems to show (despite poor quality scan and MPEG coding) L5446 on the tail. In fact the two 4's are better visible than the 5 and 6, but I am sure you are correct. Also clearly shows full PM-N code.
In fact, taking a closer look at the picture in Peter's T&N p.269 it also seems much more like 5446 than 5516.

Apart from that I have another picture of the L5516 which clearly shows a much more damaged aircraft, in fact it is split in two. PM and L5516 perfectly visible, plus only the top of the individual letter which could be either E of F.
What would be the date of this crash?

Regards, Pieter

[Revi16]

PM-N

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo all,

I have two observations on the above thread.

1/ I agree that PM-N on page 269 is L5446, not L5516.
In fact this neatly sorts out part of the missing history of L5446, with it now being attributed to 103 Squadron and now having a known fate and crew.
I too have seen a photo of this wrecked L5516. The serial is clearly visible, as is PM. The 'E/F' is a possibility also. It has the same type of fuselage roundel as the photo on page 269 but the fin flash is much wider.
When did this loss (L5516) occur and who were the crew ?

2/ I agree too that the photos on pages 295 and 331 are both of Berry-au-Bac.
Ed West has kindly provided us with other views of these wrecks in the past. One shot in particular shows the serial of the QT-coded Battle on page 295 more clearly. It is K9366 which was damaged in a bombing attack on the airfield during May 10th. It would seem the damage was terminal !
On page 331 the jagged-edged rear fuselage of K9366 is visible at the extreme left of the photo with its (presumably) wings occupying the centre of the photograph.

Regards,

Martin.

[Peter Cornwell]

Sorry to be late in joining this thread but I am only just back from India.

L5446 had already been picked up as the correct serial for PM*N flown by Sgt Beardsley on May 14, 1940, due to a better image recently coming to hand but I am nevertheless grateful for this correction. Interpretation of photos, sometimes of indifferent quality, is fraught enough but my main reason for this error was, as Iain rightly says, the aircraft was not recorded as ever being sent to France which lead me to L5516 as seemingly the only other candidate for a L5--6 loss. However, since publication, two photos of L5516 have surfaced (one as described in the thread) which now leads me to speculate that this was the aircraft flown by P/O Cunningham on that date indeed as proposed in the past by Arnaud Gillet.

My confusion over the various photos of P2193 of No.103 Squadron & K9353 of No.218 Squadron both downed on May 12 may be understandable, for there are similarities for sure, but should not have happened so my apologies to all. Corrected photo caption in hand.

Also, I now see that the photo on p331 is self-evidently Berry-au-Bac - it’s easy when you’re guided by those who know. But I am interested in Martin’s comment that K9366 was damaged on May 10, 1940, for I had no knowledge of that fact so any further confirmation will be much appreciated.

As Iain suggests, given the size & scope of BoFrT&N, it is inevitable that errors will abound & it had been my hope that publication would provoke exactly this sort of exchange as I do appreciate all contributions that allow us to document these events with better accuracy. I shall pick up his other thread shortly once I have dealt with some of the mails that awaited my return. Thanks to you all for your interest.

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo Peter,

Welcome back ! It is good to have the fates of L5446 and L5516 clarified. However that now leaves L5465 out in the cold. If Sidney Shail is correct - and I do not doubt it - L5465 was assigned to the AASF only on 20-5-1940 and to 103 Squadron on 23-5-1940. So it could not have been lost on the May 14th mission. Most likely, I suppose, it was one of the 14 unidentified Battles lost by 103 Squadron from May 25th to June 15th inclusive ?

K9366 damaged on May 10th. Errr......! It must have been one good holiday Peter ! I found that information on page 182 of a little-known book called The Battle of France, Then and Now by someone whose name escapes me at present !

Regards,

Martin.

[Peter Cornwell]

Doh! Thanks Martin, clearly I was fixated on No.103 & 218 Squadrons & trying to do too much too quickly.

Yes, the trip was excellent, but having avoided bombs at Crown Plaza in Delhi by a mere three hours & a landslide in Shimla the day after we left it is a relief to be back.

[Brian]

Hi Peter

I have only just acquired a copy of BOFT&N - excellent! I do really appreciate the amount of time and effort involved in compiling such a tome, and I have found it very useful and full of incidents that are 'new' to me.

Very well done - I wish I had gotten hold of a copy earlier!!

Cheers
Brian

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Brian,

Praise indeed - many thanks for your most generous comments which are much appreciated I assure you. Whether it is shown to be right or wrong you, of all people, know exactly how much effort was involved in putting it all together.

Regards,

PC

[martinpercy]

Gentlemen, I hope this finds you well. Thought you might be interested to see another photo of Battle PM-N for sale on ebay from Austria, here:
http://cgi.ebay.at/Foto-Abgeschossen...ht_1764wt_1140
http://s04.trixum.de/upload2/y/g/ygo...258265P432.jpg