Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22nd May 2006, 18:08
yogybär yogybär is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ER.DE
Posts: 615
yogybär is on a distinguished road
Question Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

Similar job for the 1941-battle around the ukrainian capital as we made it so well for the 1943-story... but this time it is much more difficult as there are no such clear documents available - at leat not to me.

Who can help? Maybe in BC/RS1, there is something? Sadly, I don't own it .
__________________
Liebe Grüsse, yogy
http://www.yogysoft.de
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 29th May 2006, 16:51
yogybär yogybär is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ER.DE
Posts: 615
yogybär is on a distinguished road
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

I found out that the involved RedArmies Group was the "Bryansk Front" with its connected air units... but which air units are these & which types they used still is unclear.

Does anyone have informations here?
__________________
Liebe Grüsse, yogy
http://www.yogysoft.de
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29th May 2006, 18:16
Michal Michal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 479
Michal
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

Hi,

believe, you know bit russian. See attachment, there is OOB of Bryansk Front for September 15 1941.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 29th May 2006, 19:17
Michal Michal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 479
Michal
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

You mistook me. Defence of Kiev made Aviation of Jugozapadnyi Front. See in attachment OOB for July 11 and 17 1941.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 7th June 2006, 17:28
yogybär yogybär is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ER.DE
Posts: 615
yogybär is on a distinguished road
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

I personally still believe that it was the Bryansk Front which flew in Defense of Kiev. Why do you disagree?

Starting from your OOB-doc of Bryansk-Front, it was widely inferior to the german II&V Fliegerkorps which supported the Heer.

Here are the soviet numbers, already simplified for the game PF:
10 I-153
13 I-16
44 MiG-3
25 Yak-1
26 Il-2
40 DB-3 (added them as support from AAD-forerunner)
24 Pe-2
18 Sb
25 Su-2
33 U-2 (incl. others like R-5)
SUM ca. 260

versus ca. 500 Luftwaffe combat AC (Bf109F, Ju88, Ju87, He111 + Recce).

Any more input?
__________________
Liebe Grüsse, yogy
http://www.yogysoft.de
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8th June 2006, 13:08
Jens Jens is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 147
Jens
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

IMHO Michal is right, Southwestfront (Jugosapadnje front) and airplanes of it defended Kiev, since Bryansk is more in the north of it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 8th June 2006, 13:47
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 430
Christer Bergström is on a distinguished road
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

It was VVS KOVO/Southwestern Front. Initially, the DBA’s 2 BAK and 4 BAK also supported the operations in this area. Including 14 TBAP with TB-3s. Add the PVO’s 36 IAD, which joined the battle in the skies immediately above Kiev.

Indeed the Germans enjoyed a considerable numerical superiority at one stage, however, with the bulk of the aircraft in the Southwestern Direction concentrated to VVS Southwestern Front in late August 1941, the latter could muster 493 bombers, 473 fighters, and 20 reconnaissance aircraft on 30 August 1941. By the same time, Luftflotte 4 was down at a strength of 320 bombers, around 100 serviceable fighters, and 35 reconnaissance aircraft.

The Bryansk Front, which was formed only in August 1941, operated to the north of the Southwestern Front, and thus to the north and northeast of Kiev.
__________________
All the best,

Christer Bergström

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 8th June 2006, 14:53
Michal Michal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 479
Michal
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

Yogy,

when you studying these OOBs, you just locate A/Fs and you will know which Air Units fought where.

Michal
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10th June 2006, 11:36
yogybär yogybär is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ER.DE
Posts: 615
yogybär is on a distinguished road
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

OK, OK. I'll check the AF's when I find time, sure this is the best way to persuade myself

Also I shall read more carefully what I have here in BC/RS next time.

Thanks to all for your input !

I'll rework and come back with a new proposal.
__________________
Liebe Grüsse, yogy
http://www.yogysoft.de
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 16th June 2006, 15:34
yogybär yogybär is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ER.DE
Posts: 615
yogybär is on a distinguished road
Re: Battle for Kiev 1941: VVS order of battle

If I try to extrude from BC/RS part I what VVS parts were involved, I get confused:

- Bryansk front (460A/C) fought in the same area as Lw's FK.II
- Southern&Southwestern Front fought agaionst Lw's LF 4 in general, so not only on the southern half of the Kiev area.

If this is correct Would, one could say for Kiev area:
- Lw = FK.II+FK.V
- VVS = Bryansk Front + part of Southwest Front + Southern Front?
__________________
Liebe Grüsse, yogy
http://www.yogysoft.de
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
VVS units facing Finland, 1941? Schelde Games and Simulations 4 16th February 2006 20:13
Stalingrad order of battle D13-th_Mytzu Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 9 2nd June 2005 14:08
Claims identites Adam Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 27th May 2005 01:05
Order of Battle 1938 alex crawford Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 2nd February 2005 22:14
Order of Battle 1938 alex crawford Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 30th December 2004 06:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net