Did JG5 shot down Hampdens 4 Sept 1942?

[Brian]

Hi guys

At least three of the Hampdens involved in Operation Orator were shot down by Bf109s as they flew over Norway/Finland on 4 September 1942, en route to Russia.

Who made the claims? I assume JG5.

Cheers
Brian

[Delmenhorst]

It sounds as if the Finns were responsible for two of them (from Wikipedia):
Nine Hampdens were lost or seriously damaged during the flight, due mainly to harsh Arctic weather, fuel starvation following compass failures, interception by enemy fighters and anti-aircraft fire.
AT109 (squadron code "UB-C"; 455 Sqn), captained by S/L Jimmy Catanach, was damaged by flak from the German submarine chaser UJ1105 off the north coast of Norway and made a forced landing on a beach at Molvika, near Kiberg, where the crew became prisoners of war (POWs).
AT138 ("PL-C"; 144 Sqn) was attacked by a fighter over Finland; three crew members and their passenger were killed, although the captain, Sgt J. C. R. (John) Bray baled out and became a POW – the Hampden crashed near Alakurtti.
P1273 ("PL-Q"; 144 Sqn) was attacked by fighters over Finland; the captain, Sgt Harry Bertrand, other crew members and passenger baled out successfully and became POWs – the Hampden crashed in a swamp near Petsamo.
P1344 ("PL-K"; 144 Sqn), captained by P/O E. H. E. Perry, was attacked by two fighters from Jagdgeschwader 5 (Messerschmitt Bf 109) after passing over the German airfield at Petsamo and crash-landed on the Kola Peninsula – three crew members were killed, while Perry and his passenger became POWs.
AE436 ("PL-J"; 144 Sqn) as a result of icing over Sweden, this Hampden flew into Tsatsa mountain, near Kvikkjokk; the only survivors were the pilot, P/O D. I. Evans, and his passenger.
P5304 ("UB-H"; 455 Sqn), piloted by Sgt E. J. "Sandy" Smart, was also probably affected by icing,[8] and crashed into Arvestuottar mountain, near Arjeplog in Sweden, killing the crew and their passenger.
P5323 ("UB-L"; 455 Sqn), captained by P/O Rupert "Jeep" Patrick, ran out of fuel and crash-landed at Kandalaksha, without injury to the crew.
AE356 (code unknown; 144 Sqn), piloted by Sgt Walter Hood, was mistaken for an enemy aircraft by Soviet air defences near Murmansk; the Hampden sustained damage in an attack by Soviet fighters and after Hood was forced to ditch in a lake, one crew member drowned.
AE310 (code unknown; 144 Sqn) was low on fuel by the time it reached Afrikanda and damaged in a forced landing.

[Juha]

IIRC no FiAF fighters operated over Lapland at that time.

[Brian]

Thanks guys

But still the question remains unanswered!

Who shot down the Hampdens?

Cheers
Brian

[andrus]

05.09.1942
Feindtätigkeit:
Raum Petsamo: 03,34 Uhr 4 Feindflugzeuge, Typ Hampden, Gegend Flugplatz Petsamo aus Westen. Kein BAW. Keine Flakabwehr, da ausser Wirkungsbereich. Gestartete Jäger ohne Feindberührung. -
Zwischen 06,34 – 06,49 Uhr 2 Hampden aus Norden in 500 m Höhe Flugplatz Petsamo anfliegend. BAW 3 km NW Flugplatz. Flakabwehr ohne erkannte Wirkung. 1 Abchuss einer Hampden durch eigene Jäger. -
Zwischen 03,38 – 04,08 Uhr 2 Hampden Raum Kirkenes und Vardö. - Kein BAW. - 1 Hampden 05,20 Uhr bei Vardö notgelandet, nach Flakbeschuss durch Heeresflak, 5 Australier gefangen genommen. -
Zwischen 5,19 und 05,41 Uhr 1 Hampden bei Vardö. - Kein BAW. - Flakabwehr ohne erkannte Wirkung. Gestartete Jäger ohne Feindberührung. -
Zwischen 06,23 – 06,45 Uhr 1 Hampden Raum Vadsö in 4000 m. Kurs SO. Kein BAW. Keine Flakabwehr, da ausser Wirkungsbereich. -
Zwischen 07,34 – 07,54 Uhr 5 zweimot. Eindecker im Küstengebiet Nordostw. Kirkenes ohne BAW. Keine Flakabwehr, da ausser Wirkungsbereich. - Gestartete Jäger ohne Feindberührung.
[...]
Zwischen 03,20 – 04,30 Uhr mehrere Feindflugzeuge im Raum Alakurtti ohne BAW. Abschuss einer P-2 durch Flak und einer Hampden durch eigene Jäger (Jäger Abschuss gemeldet mit Morgenmeldung).
[...]
03,52 Uhr 1 Hampden in 2000 m, später 1300 m über Flugplatz Nautsi, Flakabwehr ohne erkannte Wirkung. Abschuss dieser Hampden durch eigene Jäger 70 km NO Flugplatz.

Eigene Einsätze:
06,55 - 07,14 Uhr von Petsamo: Alarmstart, Abschuss 1 Hampden 20 km SO Flugplatz Petsamo. -
[...]
03,43 – 04,54 Uhr von Nautsi: Alarmstart. Abschuss 1 Hampden 70 km NO Flugplatz. -
[...]
Verluste:
eigene 1 Bf 109 vermisst,
feindl.: Durch Jäger 11 Flugzeuge (3 Hampden, 4 Hurricane, 2 Tomahawk, 2 Mig), durch Flak 2 Flugzeuge (1 PE 2, 1 Hampden durch Heeresflak). -

[focusfocus]

At that time (09/42),the 5/JG5 was based at "Nautsi" and "Ivalo" in Finland.
Probably the Hampden AT 138 of 144 Sq crashed near Alakurtti was shot down by a pilot of the 5/JG5 but who?
Look with Goggle the place of Alakurtti and Ivalo

michel

[Stig Jarlevik]

I agree with Juha

Ilmavoimat did not operate in the area in question.

Probably it was the Luftwaffe as Andrus says

Since the records of JG 5 is as they are (very incomplete) it will be difficult to track down what really happened.

Cheers
Stig

[Brian]

Hi guys

Many thanks.

Stig: I believe some of the crew members are buried in your home city?

Cheers
Brian

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Brian

Kviberg cemetary contains the final resting place for 31 identified and 11 non identified RAF/RAAF/RCAF personal.

Some of them were moved in there post WW 2

B Rgds
Stig