1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova

[egbert]

Could anybody comment please on the different Werknr and identification markings as listed in post #18 please?

[researcher111]

Is spelled in Romanian language Topleț ( Topletz) the other location may be an error (Polet ) as into the JU-52 Werk Nummer , I can't help further is not my area of research and only reffering what Klemm left .

I have a question though , Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, + was the pilot , who was then the co pilot or was the flight not manned by a co pilot ? who was the Navigator for such a long route
(Flugbeobachter ) and how did you come up with 23 pax , 2 pilots and a P-38 bringing down the JU-52 ? 15th Air Force ( 5 PRG) performed high alt.recon flights with F-5's on that day, as such no
enemy fighters involved .

[Matti Salonen]

Normally military Ju 52/3m was flown with a crew of four: Pilot, Observer, Radio Operator and Flight Mechanic.

Matti

[egbert]

Alex, 16.4.44 crash due to fighter engagement, the other
10.5.44 crash due to weather impact

[researcher111]

Matti I am aware of at least 3 cases when a co pilot was on board , though is JU-52's is not my area , then a Q remains open was there an observer on that flight ?

[researcher111]

Fighter Aircraft engagement am 16.4.44 vollig ausgeschlossen !

Am 16.4. waren über Orsova weder noch Rumänien gar keine US Flugzeuge involviert also gar keine Feindflüge weder noch irgendwelche P-38, deshalb wie wurde den JU-52 am 16.4 abgeschossen und durch wem ? Meiner Meinung nach auch diese Flug teilte den ähnlichen Schicksal wie den anderen datiert 10.5 Wurde auch diese Flug ohne Beobachter bemannt wenn ja dann ist alles recht seltsam . Langstrecken ohne Beobachter !

[egbert]

Here is my interpretation and speculation based on Matti's and Alex' inputs.

1. The Ju52 with identifier PH + OI, Werk Nr . 3225 , left Mamaia (Konstanza), stopped in Pipera (Bucharest)=fact.

Next Matti's and my speculations:
2. Next -why a new briefing in Pipera after flying a mere 200km only, or, stop for refueling?
Instead they changed planes to another Ju52 with identifier PO+GO, WerkNr. 501326, SKZ , sent from OKM to pick them up for the immediate flight towards Berlin, via Arad (which was never reached). Maybe the statement from R.Klemm, that they fueled in Arad, is a mix-up of the eye witness account ?
KK Rosenbaum was a VIP called to Berlin. A Flotillenchef does not fly around in circles, burning valuable time and certainly did not fly 1000km from Mamaia (Konstanza) to Arad and back from Arad 1000km to Varna and than proceed towards Berlin. This is not plausible at all.

3. From Pipera the new JU52 was WNr. 501326, SKZ PO+GO. Flight path from Pipera across the wide plains and starting the West Carpathian mountain range crossing northbound by turning into the valley north, from Orsova to Arid . Just behind Orsova in thick fog the pilot was disoriented and accidentally deviated from the flight path left into the mountain region and crashed 9km n/w of Toplet.

Please see speculated flight path in attached file

[researcher111]

Egbert

I can't answer speculative questions nor there is any point in going into such , however briefing
on short distances was nothing out of the ordinary , remember the Russians started the Iasi Chisinau
offensive and the Allied the Ploesti and Romania bombings. I have no additional info to help with.

[egbert]

Originally Posted by researcher111

Fighter Aircraft engagement am 16.4.44 vollig ausgeschlossen !

Am 16.4. waren über Orsova weder noch Rumänien gar keine US Flugzeuge involviert also gar keine Feindflüge weder noch irgendwelche P-38, deshalb wie wurde den JU-52 am 16.4 abgeschossen und durch wem ? Meiner Meinung nach auch diese Flug teilte den ähnlichen Schicksal wie den anderen datiert 10.5 Wurde auch diese Flug ohne Beobachter bemannt wenn ja dann ist alles recht seltsam . Langstrecken ohne Beobachter !

Just an afterburner to the 16.4.44 crash in the same Toplet/Töplitz area:
The 16th saw a hell of allied action due to escort fighters and bombers roaming the skies in the campaign against the oil fields, Luftwaffe airfields and Belgrade.
I quote from another thread here on this forum:
...... it should be noted that the loss of a Ju 52 on 16 April 1944, so as shown in the OBSO report for the day, was not linked to the Allied attacks around Belgrade. Involved was in fact Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501325 of 9./TG 4, which was downed by Allied escort fighters at Toplitz, some 9 km to the West of Orsava in the Banat region of Romania. 16 men aboard were reportedly killed. Another 16 men came to death on 17 April 1944 when the Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501132 1Z+JX of 11./TG 4 was hit by Allied escort fighters and ditched on the Danube river in an attempted emergency landing some 32 km South of Orsava." end of quote.

Also the eyewitness account from the crash on the 16th (as posted in „Deutsche Vortragsreihe Reschitza“ XIV Auflage, 23. Juni 2007
7 Juli 2007 XVIII. Jahrgang – Nr. 7 (211) – 2007, Seite 53 – 54") says:

quote: "......wieder Fliegeralarm in Orschowa. Auf einer Wiese, auf dem Rücken liegend, pobierten wir, mein Freund Luki und ich, die vielen silbernen Bomber „B 24“ zu zählen. Es waren auch mehrere doppelrumpfige Jagdflugzeuge. Da wurde vor uns auch ein tieffliegendes deutsches Rotes-Kreuz-Flugzeug (JU 52) aus Richtung Turnu Severin kommend gesichtet. Leider aber auch von den Jägern. Man hörte die Bordkanonen krachen, das Rote-Kreuz-Flugzeug wurde getroffen und stürzte bei Topletz, ca. 12 km von Orschowa entfernt ab. Ich konnte mit einem deutschen Militär-LKW, einem Opel Blitz, zur Unglücksstelle mitfahren. Die war noch rauchbedeckt. Flammen züngelten noch hie und da. Weitverstreut Flugzeugtrümmer, Leichen. Zerstückelte Leichen. Ein grauenvoller Anblick. Und da sah ich ihn. Den Bauernbuben, der von einer zermalmten Leiche die scheinbar noch brauchbaren Stiefel herunterzuzerren versuchte. Ich ergriff ein krummes Rohrstück, das ich gerade finden konnte und lief schreiend hin. Der Junge machte halt, schaute mich verängstigt an, machte kehrt und lief weg. Ich lies ihn laufen......" end of quote.

But - - - this thread shall stay with the crash, dated 10 May 1944 in the same area n/w of Toplet, near Orsova.

[researcher111]

Egbert

Categorically not ! I repeat there were no Allied activities whatsoever over Romania before
April 4,1944 not even recon flights . If you reffer to Allied activities on March 16,1944
over Yugoslavia that is something I didn't debate nor was something I questioned because
we debate Orsova , Romania .

Regarding Soviet air activities of their AF and Naval Air Fleet near Orsova I rule out because
they were not at all in that area . Regarding the other events concerning Luftwaffe flights
I don't know coze it is not my research area.

So which oil fields of which country you talking about on March 16,44 ? if you meant April 16th
then yes on that date there were such , but the JU-52 crash at Orsova was on March 16,44
right ? So lets return back to your date March 16,44 when the JU-52 crashed at Orsova and
let me conclude like this dated May 10,44 as well due to weather rather enemy fighters .