Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13th March 2018, 21:08
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 4,269
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
42-3030 confusion ?

Hello,

Re the loss of B17F, 42-3030.

Dick Drain has the a/c listed under 97th BG,
" Departed U.S, 4 Apr, 43.
Assigned 17 Apr, 43.
Condemned 8 Apr, 44.
Salvaged Overseas".

BUT

Joe Baugher has
(FA) lost 4 April, 1943, South Pacific.

And accideent report .com site has -
Marrakech, French Morocco - UK, MACR 5662.

Fold3 has the MACR,
It say's that the a/c was on a delivery Ferry flight from the USA via North Africa to the UK.
There seems one day delay in North Africa and a/c with five crew took off on the 4 the April,43 and was not seen again.
Presumably down in the sea somewhere between North Africa and St. Eval, Cornwall.

So how was the a/c assigned to the 97th BG after her disappearance ?

Alex
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17th January 2019, 03:30
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 4,269
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

Hello, A new year , so anyone have any thoughts on this letter ?
Thanks
Alex
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17th January 2019, 11:32
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,810
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

Alex

The USAAF cards can be quite tricky to read.
My interpretation of the card is this

Built under order number W535-ac-20291
received by USAAF at manufacturer's plant 23.12.1942
flown into Douglas Long Beach Modification Plant 23.12.1942
flown to Cheyenne, WY 18.1.1943
flown to Salina, KS 2.2.1943
flown to Memphis TN 19.2.1943
flown to Nashville, TN 21.2.1943 (It seems the transfer from Cheyenne to Nashville was handled by Mobile Air Depot Ferry Group)
assigned to 12th AF (MTO) 25.2.1943 with an expected delivery to point of receipt in North Africa 4.4.1943

After that the card (including the scribe) gets really confusing
line 1: GLEN 3 443 (possible meaning departed USA 4.3.1943 to North Africa)
line 2: GLEN 41743 41743 (possible meaning arrived North Africa 17.4.1943 and the data entered by the scribe the same day)
line 3: CON AFMSC GLEN 30304 844 (possible meaning Condemned 3.3 and the data entered 8.4.1944)
line 4: CON INVM GLEN 3030 7844 (possible meaning Condemned again - for different reasons 3.3 and data entered 8.7.1944)
under all this is written by hand 4.9.1944

It is very, very clear the scribe has NOT entered this data correctly, ie according to the rules stipulated

GLEN: Codeword for 12th AF
AFMSC: usually used when no details of what has happened causing aircraft to be condemned has reached the scribe
INVM: No idea

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17th January 2019, 15:06
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,810
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

Hallo again Alex

I have checked a few B-17 sites, but none lists 42-3030 with 97BG.
Who is Dick Drain and is his info listed in a book or something?

One reason 97BG was involved could be that the aircraft was supposed to be assigned to the BG in question and/or the delivery was made by a crew already belonging to or was going to be assigned to the BG in question. Delivery flights were not only made by the Ferry Groups.

Looking at the card again, the digits 3030 on line 3 and 4 may of course belong to the aircraft's serial number, but if so, then the scribe was way, way out. Such details should never be written in that place and not in such a way what so ever!!

Looking at your other alternatives
1) You can forget about Baugher. Nothing on the card suggests any delivery to the South Pacific (code word should have been FULCRUM)

2) With regard to the MACR, I doubt the aircraft was on its way to the UK.
Nothing on the actual card suggests anything like that. Only GLEN is listed, never struck out or changed in any way. If aircraft had been re-assigned to 8th AF the code UGLY (and replaced by SOXO) was still in use early 1943.
Checking 42-3029 which also was assigned to GLEN, its destination was changed to UGLY/SOXO when under delivery.
Line 2 is very odd since it could also be interpreted as if the aircraft was delayed for some reason and did not depart until the 17th. Is it possible to write down exactly what the MACR says?

It is also very odd that the card itself was not updated until 1944, ie almost one year after aircraft had been lost.

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17th January 2019, 22:33
Sean Welch Sean Welch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 64
Sean Welch is on a distinguished road
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

Aircraft lost 5th April 1943 under command of a 5 man ferry crew from 20th Ferry Group, 70th Squadron. The five crew are commemorated on the Tablets of the missing at North Africa American Cemetery. They are:

RO 35459089 Ralph D Bingham Sgt. OH 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/70FrS
N O-664899 Louis A Koenig 2nd Lt. NJ 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/70FrS
P O-501971 Kermit A Carte Capt. FL 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/71FrS
CP O-501972 Wilbert Councill 1st Lt. LA 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/71FrS
E 18120733 Edmund D Werner Cpl NM 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/71FrS

Sean
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17th January 2019, 22:46
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,810
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Welch View Post
Aircraft lost 5th April 1943 under command of a 5 man ferry crew from 20th Ferry Group, 70th Squadron. The five crew are commemorated on the Tablets of the missing at North Africa American Cemetery. They are:

RO 35459089 Ralph D Bingham Sgt. OH 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/70FrS
N O-664899 Louis A Koenig 2nd Lt. NJ 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/70FrS
P O-501971 Kermit A Carte Capt. FL 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/71FrS
CP O-501972 Wilbert Councill 1st Lt. LA 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/71FrS
E 18120733 Edmund D Werner Cpl NM 5 4 1943 B-17F # 42-3030 Missing over Atlantic Ocean on ferry flight from Marrakech to St. Eval. MACR 5662 FOD 20FrG/71FrS

Sean
Thanks Sean

Is this what the MACR says?

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 17th January 2019, 23:34
Sean Welch Sean Welch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 64
Sean Welch is on a distinguished road
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

The MACR file does not contain the standard MACR form, instead the documents pertain to information requests from relatives and the internal investigation.
The main document is an AG 704 dated 24th November 1948 which confirms that 42-3030 left Marrakech for St. Eval 22:45 4th April 1943. The weather was unfavourable and the field operation's officer advised against the plane's departure. The unit is confirmed and that the flight originated in Nashville for delivery to the UK. A relative had written to President Truman requesting the true details of the flight, as he had heard that a sixth person was on board and that radio communication had occurred from the aircraft at 00:05 which suddenly cut off. The existence of a sixth crew member was not confirmed and despite enquiries no-one could recall the communications.
It was conjectured that the aircraft was lost in the Atlantic.

Sean
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18th January 2019, 00:11
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,810
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

OK Sean

Very interesting! Are there any contemporary documents within this MACR, or are all those visible/dated from 1948? Missing perhaps, or...??
I would be interested in knowing exactly what contemporary sources can state.
A report made in 1948 is usually not very reliable when it comes to exact details of what happened five years earlier.

I am not saying the USAAF record cards are gospel, far from that, but it is interesting that nothing about a change of assignment (ie from GLEN to UGLY/SOXO) ever filtered back to the aircraft record keepers in USA. Also it is interesting that line 3 and 4 are so incredibly garbled one year after the accident.

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18th January 2019, 01:59
Sean Welch Sean Welch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 64
Sean Welch is on a distinguished road
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

The file does not contain any documents from 1943, the paper trail starts in early 1944 with a request for information concerning 2nd Lt. Koenig. This bounces around as his unit was first thought to be 20BG, then to 8th AF, then to European Wing Air Transport Command until finally it lands with 558 AAFBU (20th Ferry Group) ATC, Nashville Municipal Airport who confirm on 29th May 1944 the crew details. They state that Koenig was the Navigator aboard 42-3030 which was to be ferried from this HQ to the United Kingdom.

Jump to 1948, AG 704, which has reference to and quotes 1943 documents:
Cas Msg. 104137 - Plane 42-3030 reported by Marrakech to be carrying a crew of five and no passengers, is still missing.
Cas Msg. 111071 - Fortress 42-3030 carrying replacement crew, is still missing. No records available.
Cas Msg. 121018 - 8th AF states departure of plane 3030 from Marrakech for United Kingdom at 2245 hours, 4 Apr 43, has been confirmed. No word has been received since departure, and plane has not arrived at destination.
Cas Msg. 132050 - Operations Officer at Marrakech recommended aircraft 42-3030 stayed at Marrakech until weather cleared, but plane, carrying a crew of five, took off for St. Eval, England 4 Apr and has not been heard from since. Status - missing, non-battle. Organization 20th Ferrying Group.
This document also refers to the AG201 file of Sgt. Bingham which contains the letter to the President previously referred to.
The document concludes with the evidence presented being accepted as an official report of death.
Sean.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 18th January 2019, 03:57
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 4,269
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: 42-3030 confusion ?

Hello Stig and Sean,
Many thanks for your detailed input.
Confirms my opinion that the a/c was lost on ferry flight from the Mediterranean to the UK.
I can only assume that on arrival from the USA to North Africa that at some time there she was assigned or for paperwork purposes assigned to the 97th BG, or even that the crew were from the 97th and on loan to the Ferry Service?
Many thanks to you both.
Alex
PS
Stig, Dick Drain no longer with us produced the book "5th Bomb Wing - history of aircraft assigned"
Which covers almost all 2nd; 97th ; 99th; 301st; 463rd; 483rd Bomber Groups and mission lists.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is this a true statement about the B24? tcolvin Allied and Soviet Air Forces 52 24th January 2014 18:55
KG51 and Armawir raid 4/5.Nov.42 Andrey Kuznetsov Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 19 22nd June 2013 14:51
Ju 86 Interceptions Aug-Sep 42 Chris Goss Allied and Soviet Air Forces 5 28th May 2013 15:13
Heinz Baer's vic total NickM Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 12 21st February 2010 16:59
Luftzeuggruppen records Hans Mcilveen Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 8 31st May 2009 17:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net