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  #11  
Old 11th December 2017, 22:04
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim O. View Post
Hi Nick

For what it is worth, my experience is also that a number of spellings in Flugbuche reflect German phonetics, particularly Russian place names, which can almost magically appear if we replace J with Y and Z with TS, etc.
Nor could they reliably spell French or Italian place names or the names of their own people! Human fallibility at work.
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  #12  
Old 12th December 2017, 02:19
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

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Originally Posted by Rasmussen View Post
This hasn't to do how sounds things in German --- J is the handwritten form of the letter I (and the printed J) and I is the printed form of the letter I.
How do you explain this then:


Source: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, of 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Shot down on 15th August 1940 at Hawkhurst, Kent, England. Later shipped to the USA in April 1941.
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  #13  
Old 12th December 2017, 15:33
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

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Originally Posted by John Vasco View Post
How do you explain this then:


Source: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, of 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Shot down on 15th August 1940 at Hawkhurst, Kent, England. Later shipped to the USA in April 1941.
There are a lot of possibilities --- the correct stencil wasn't by the hand or used by others, an unskilled worker with problems in spelling (such peoples in Germany too), not enough time/ stress (but him was known that everbody understood the word because the handwritten I and the printed J have/had the same form) or... or... or... but this hasn't to do how sounds things in Germany.
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  #14  
Old 13th December 2017, 18:15
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

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Originally Posted by Rasmussen View Post
There are a lot of possibilities --- the correct stencil wasn't by the hand or used by others, an unskilled worker with problems in spelling (such peoples in Germany too), not enough time/ stress (but him was known that everbody understood the word because the handwritten I and the printed J have/had the same form) or... or... or... but this hasn't to do how sounds things in Germany.

You don't answer my question.

This is what you wrote: "...J is the handwritten form of the letter I (and the printed J) and I is the printed form of the letter I..."

I've shown it was not only handwritten...
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  #15  
Old 13th December 2017, 20:32
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

Excuse me but I answered your question ... maybe my English is limited or stupid.

Have a look on this: Attachment 15932
How you see the handwritten I looks like the printed J (depending from handwriting and/or print).

The usual form of an "printed I" was an printed I Attachment 15934.

Of course in your example was used an printed J instead of an printed I and you asked me for an explanation and this question I answered:

"There are a lot of possibilities --- the correct stencil wasn't by the hand or used by others, an unskilled worker with problems in spelling (such peoples in Germany too), not enough time/ stress (but him was known that everbody understood the word because the handwritten I and the printed J have/had the same form) or... or... or..." ... or how we say in Germany: "Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel." ("Exceptions confirm the rule.")

But I believe this is an academic discussion and not part of an aircraft/airwar forum. So I believe it's more useless...
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  #16  
Old 16th December 2017, 17:05
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

Rasmussen gives the correct explanation concerning hand-written scripts. But the confusion originates also in the difference Fraktur (=Schwabacher) Schrift and Antiqua (=Norm) Schrift:

http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese...e/Fraktur1.htm

The change was made in 1941 (Bormann-Erlaß). So WW2 saw Gemans having grown up with Sütterlin and Fraktur, but had to use Normschrift and Antiqua. You have to take into consideration this fact when reading ANY German writing - both printed and hand-written - when reading German scripts of that time. The result were mixtures between the four of them. A living example for me is my 90-yo father...

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  #17  
Old 16th December 2017, 21:54
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

Flugzeugtafel 1944 Original wartime production.

.

Last edited by Snautzer; 13th January 2018 at 18:06.
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  #18  
Old 17th December 2017, 02:49
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

Thanks again everyone.
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Looking for any information or documents relating to:
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  #19  
Old 17th December 2017, 03:20
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

Sorry I didn't pick up that you were interested in 10./ not 12./- a doh! moment for me!
Regarding your request for information for Gaul and Mueller, have you seen the info in the officer career summaries at ww2.dk?
Peter
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  #20  
Old 17th December 2017, 13:00
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Re: Luftwaffe Designation for Russian Aircraft as 'J-18'

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Originally Posted by PMoz99 View Post
Sorry I didn't pick up that you were interested in 10./ not 12./- a doh! moment for me!
Regarding your request for information for Gaul and Mueller, have you seen the info in the officer career summaries at ww2.dk?
Peter
Hi Peter

I think I provided most of the information to ww2.dk on Gaul and Mueller but thanks for the pointer anyway.
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Looking for any information or documents relating to:
Alfred Schmittka 5./KG 54; Josef Harmeling 4.(Schlacht)/LG 2; Wilhelm Gaul 1./106, 2./906 & III./KG 40; Karl Müller I./KG 2; Werner Breese 5.(F)/122
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