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  #21  
Old 2nd July 2020, 14:04
mars mars is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Very much so.
You can use the Tony Wood lists to compare JG 2's claims to Fighter Command's losses (use the 1941 and 1942 Luftwaffe claims lists for the German victory claims, and the Fighter Command summaries to find the enemy losses. At the very least, the discrepancies in the numbers claimed versus the numbers actually lost will become obvious).
As for his service on the Russian Front, I refer you to Christer Bergstroem's recent Black Cross + Red Star 4, which gives good coverage of many of his victories and overclaims

I have read Black Cross + Red Star 4, in which Mr Christer gives him very high regard, and I don't recall Christer mentioned him as an overclaimer.
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  #22  
Old 2nd July 2020, 14:22
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Beg to differ. Page 140 describes his claims in the second sortie of 14 January 43 as being over-optimistic, we read similar on Page 144 (in several seperate parts of that page, in fact).

Listing out what I can, this is what I have come up with:

30.12.42/0850, 0850, 0853, 0855
4 x “LaGG-3s” (actually P-40s, likely others involved)
Staraya Russa – Demjansk
10 IAP, 239 IAD, 6 VA lost Mayor Nikolai Terekhin KIA plus one other shot down. 156 IAP, 240 IAD, 6 VA lost St.Lts. Vocharov, Kasakin and Tokarev plus St. Serzh Chinarov.
(Versus at least 8 claims)

30.12.42/0857
IL-2 Sturmovik
Staraya Russa/Demjansk (PQ 29472) @ 800m
243 ShAD, 6 VA. 6 losses for 11 claims

30.12.42/1145
LaGG-3
Staraya Russa/Demjansk (PQ 18262) @ 1800m
21 GIAP, 240 IAD, 6 VA lost Podpolkovnik Georgiy Nikolaevich Konyev (14 kills, 18 shared) in this engagement
(Stotz also claimed)

14.1.43/1036, 1037, 1038 and 1042
4 x LaGG-3s
Schlusselburg-Mga
263 IAP, 215 IAD, 14 VA. Four losses: Serzhant Antonov and Ml.Lt. Seliverstov both KIA. Serzhant Petkevich baled out over friendly territory and Starshiy Serzhant Ageshin bellylanded back at Shum airfield
(Stotz claimed 4 victories in the engagement as well)

14.1.43/1210, 1211 and 1212
3 x LaGG-3s
Schlusselburg-Mga
263 IAP. Overclaiming, only Ml.Lt. Rostem forcelanded in friendly territory
(Stotz claimed 4 victories in the engagement as well)

23.1.43/1320, 1322 and 1325
3 x LaGG-3s
Mga Sector
2 GIAP. Overclaiming, only loss was Kapitan Afanasiy Sobolev baled out
(Steindl claimed one as well)

24.1.43/0935, 0940, 0942 and 1135
4 x LaGG-3s

25.1.43/0945, 0947 and 0949
2 x La-5s, 1 x LaGG-3

26.1.43/1058
La-5 ("LaGG-3")
SE of Schlusselburg (PQ 10152) @ 2000m
263 IAP. Lt. Kalenskiy and Ml.Lt. Petkevich both WIA
(Stotz claimed two as well)

26.1.43/1400 and 1403
2 x LaGG-3s
E of Schlusselburg
3 GIAP, 61 IABR, KBF. One engagement at 1500 ST, only loss was pilot Prasilov WIA; another engagement at 1600 ST, only loss was Serzhant Stepanov
(3 claims by Stotz)


27.1.43/1043
La-5 ("LaGG-3")
Schlusselburg area (PQ 10111) @ 50m
2 GIAP. Gv.Lt. Filipp Kosolapov, escaped safely and made it home
(Stotz claimed one as well)

21.2.43/0911
La-5 ("LaGG-5")
30km W of Demjansk (PQ 18463) @ 2000m
169 IAP, one pilot KIA and one WIA. One source says this may have been Alexander Mikhailovich Chislov, only damaged but most now agree this was St.Lt. Mikhail Vorobiyev KIA



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  #23  
Old 2nd July 2020, 16:39
mars mars is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Thanks Nick, it is also interesting about Hans Hahn's experience after he was taken prisoner, especially the part he claimed he was almost hanged after a verbal altercation
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  #24  
Old 2nd July 2020, 16:45
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Hi Guys

I am surprised that I cannot workout how Batz and Hartmann did this over-claiming. No link such as Hahn/Stotz and Nowotny/Schnorrer/Dobele using somebody from a staffel whilst Kommandeur.

With Batz his earlier claims with stab.II./JG52 are quite odd, I thought many should be legitimate because he used ground-witnesses, but the offers are very likely to have been in the company of Heinrich Sturm, yet despite this they seem to be A.S.M or O.Z-A.S.M claims, I am even more convinced these are all legitimate claims. As for the offers the pattern of claiming is very suspect, I just can't find how he worked it.

So unlike the Kommandeur of JG54 those with JG52 on the fiddle must have used another form of inducement of unknown to myself to work their scams.

I would suggest that the researchers in the matter are not having the complete Russian losses before them, but if this is the case, why do they suggest others were honest?
I guess there must be another answer.....but what?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Last edited by Johannes; 4th July 2020 at 11:36.
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  #25  
Old 2nd July 2020, 18:08
Black6 Black6 is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Keep up the excellent work Johannes.
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  #26  
Old 2nd July 2020, 18:21
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Good question, but I have no idea. Personally I always trust the official loss-reports more (issued by their owners, regardless of their side) than any reported claims, filed by the opponent side after the mission, having zero responsibility on the loss. Any side, losing a plane had the responsibility for:

1., Report the loss of the plane and the loss of their pilot in different channels, even if the pilot returned healthy in just a few days. Simply, because eg. he could not be scheduled for the next mission of the day, or the next day.

2., They also had to report the loss to the families of the MIA/KIA airmen, and the change in their maintenance, refill, etc. tasks of the day for the ground crews,

3., they had to request new, replacement planes from the factories / Air Army distribution centres to maintain the combat value of their unit.

4., they had to request new, replacement pilots from the training units.

So it was much-much more complicated and difficult to play tricks with the losses than with the claims. But since the soviet reports match the claims of many other Luftwaffe pilots very well, to me it is obvious that the problem was with some individual Luftwaffe pilots' reports/claims, not with the reported losses. But unfortunately I cannot tell you what and how..

Gabor
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  #27  
Old 4th July 2020, 12:14
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Hi Guys

Am still looking into the excessive periods of the Stab of first and second Gruppe JG54. It would appear to be not to be all, with the second Gruppe just Hans Hahn and Erich Rudorffer. As we have established most often the Gruppenkommandeur flew with only a single wingman, in Hahn's case he borrowed Max Stotz from one of his Staffels, with Rudorffer he had his own official wingman Kurt Tangermann. All the other Gruppenkommandeur seem honest.
With the First Gruppe we have Hans Philipp using his own personal wingamn Reinhardt, previous to this period both seem to be claiming unspectacularily, then this changes very abruptly together to spectacular claiming. With Nowotny it's different he borrows his former wingmen from staffels within his Gruppe to continue his spectacular claiming/over-claiming. Again the other Gruppenkommandeur seem honest.

I have heard bad things about Franz Eisenach, but cannot link him to anybody in collusion! As with Wilhelm Batz, though possible there are links with other top scorers within 5./JG52 during 1943, he claims spectacular though they are during 1944 with the stab.III./JG52 were made without any collusion, in fact he was the only guy claiming with the staff, and I cannot find any link between him and any staffel member/members of III./JG52, yet research would suggest, or rather prove that he was over-claiming, but though we know he did it, we do know know how, certainly not in the way of the JG54 guys.

Barkhorn did use sometimes regular wingmen, but at other times he flew with random wingmen, being a Gruppenkommandeur he had the opportunity, but as we have established, not the inclination Guess we could say about Philipp is that he had the inclination, but no opportunity until he became Gruppenkommandeur.

But how do you go about it even with the opportunity that being a Gruppenkommandeur brings, was there a secret handshake or something? How did Hans Hahn know he could use Stotz, Stotz's claims prior to Hahn being Kommandeur though large in number were not spectacular, then abruptly they became so. Hahn did not know Stotz before becoming Kommandeur.

With Nowotny it's slightly different, that being that he could fly within a larger group, at least Schwarm size within his staffel and they all four over-claim. I suspect that perhaps he was shy about approaching as Kommandeur to suggest the back-scratching plan, so he just used his old over-claiming staffel friends of Gerhard Loos, Anton Dobele and Karl Schnorrer.

Hans Philipp take Reinhardt with him to JG1, bu there they flew as much larger groups, thus the opportunity was not there!

Keep well

Johannes
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  #28  
Old 6th July 2020, 12:03
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Hi Guys

I looked into Düttmann, like Hartmann/Batz it's hard to pin him down, however we do have the witness to each of his claims. I tried liking him to other pilots, during this I did a check on Fonnekold, and agree with Boris Ciglic, without having Russian losses his claims pattern is not suspicious, moreover no link to anybody really.

So all of Düttmann's witnesses seem okay with three exceptions, two of which never had claims themselves, but there is always other inducements I guess, the third is Rudolf Fritze, he shines more less than a month, then is gone, don't know where or what happened to him, but each of his own claims was with Düttmann during Düttmann's most lucrative moment, the ratio is two "kills" for Düttmann for one to Fritze, and he was of very low rank a gefreiter.

I'll do a new thread to see if some well informed member knows anything about him.

Question for Gabor, is your opinion that Düttmann was always over-claiming, or was there certain periods?

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #29  
Old 6th July 2020, 13:37
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Johannes,
Düttmann's claims in 1945 were absolutely terrible. I should say they contain some 'traces of victories'. Without much details, that -by the way- would worth a book:

08/03/1945 - 16.24 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
08/03/1945 - 16.27 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
09/03/1945 - 13.51 - OVERCLAIM - La-5
09/03/1945 - 13.53 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
11/03/1945 - 13.23 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
11/03/1945 - 13.26 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
11/03/1945 - 15.21 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
14/03/1945 - 12.55 - CONFIRMED VICTORY - Boston (S/N: 43-21519)
16/03/1945 - 13.55 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.56 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.58 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.59 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 14.01 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Il-2mH. (S/N: 18874124)
18/03/1945 - 14.05 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
19/03/1945 - 11.52 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
19/03/1945 - 14.56 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
19/03/1945 - 15.03 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - La-5 (S/N: 39211166)
20/03/1945 - 14.05 - OVERCLAIM - P-51

Soviet records cannot be mistaken. (- and we have them in our museum's records!) They list even the number of bullets fired/used during the missions by calibre, dropped bombs by number and kind, fired wing rockets, - everything. Take off times, landing times (Moscow time!), events, losses, so again: everything. Usually there were several hours of time gaps between Düttmann's claims and the confirmed soviet losses. But eg. on March 16, 1945 several IL-2s returned with combat damages (eg. S/N: 1871494, 1871988, 1872787), which might be linked to Düttmann's actions, but they were not lost. They landed safely, got repaired, then took off again. I was shocked to see the inaccuracy of Düttmann's claims. But if the German office for any reasons recorded wrong details (time, type, location of victory, etc.), certainly I cannot verify that and I can compare only the records that have been written down.

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 6th July 2020 at 14:52.
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  #30  
Old 6th July 2020, 15:19
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Hi Gabor

Sorry to have questioned the completeness of Russian losses. I have the British losses, but need to be careful as the coastal units get listed separately.

I have all the Luftwaffe confirmed claims some 67,000, but this is incomplete, the mikrofilms fade-out end 1944, flugbücher and abschusseliste help, but they will never be found for all pilots. Also there is only really the period of completeness for the mikrofilms of October 1943 until October 1944....and then some SG units are omitted, but between these two date runs the daily mikrofilm entries, prior to this it's done by Gruppe and staffel, of which several units are missing, abschussetafel survive for some of these units, but most do not indicate if the claim was confirmed or not.

I was told that Düttmann related a story about the death of Otto Fonnekold so outrageous that it was unbelievable. But I investigated it anyway, basically story went that another Luftwaffe pilot who hated Fonnekold challenged him to a duel in the air, which Fonnekold lost. I looked into the other pilot and he was wounded at the time, also his Gruppenkommandeur relates his death in some detail, naturally it is possible that the Kommandeur was told a lie, as Fonnekold was killed by a single bullet to the heart I did wonder if it had been a duel on the ground, but how could it be allowed to happen in either senario ? Perhaps Düttmann could talk a good tale, though in this case it was allegedly supported by another pilot.

With about half the very top pilots being "over-claimers" and not just mistaken, it makes the actual honest guys even more outstanding in my eyes.

Helmut Lipfert was Düttmann's Gruppenkommandeur, but seems not really to have flown much with him. So if Lipfert is fooled my Düttmann it just goes to show that it can be done. I am surprised though about Düttmann, his pattern of claiming isn't so bad, and he had large numbers of unconfirmed due to lack of witnesses, I can only imagine then that if flying alone he would just claim a few "over-claims", or that he claimed among honest men who would not support his claim, but in almost ever case I cannot find evidence of him having company.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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