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Old 7th October 2013, 00:20
DIscotraxxx DIscotraxxx is offline
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[Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

Hi,

This is my first post on the forum, and I thank you in advance for your help.
I’m pretty sure that I did some mistakes…

I started to work on the crashes of November 23, 1939 in France because a french veteran I know was the witness of the Boulay-Moselle / Macker crash. Then I wanted to know more about the 7 other crashes, especially the other He 111 crash in Königsmacker.

Many infos are still missing for those 8 crashes, and I still have a two major problems :

- crew, unit and location of Plane 1 and Plane 4 may be inverted (Do 17)

- crew, unit and location of Plane 2 and Plane 5 may be inverted (He 111)

I was also unable to find infos on the graves of 7 aircrew members KIA on November 23, 1939 (Plane 1, Place 4, Plane 5).
I contacted the Niederbronn-Les-Bains cemetary and I hope they will confirm me that the two other crew members of Plane 1 are buried near Alfred Winter. I also asked them if they can give me the names of all the german soldiers killed on November 23, 1939 in their cemetery.

I don’t have any infos on the three crew members of Plane 8 who escaped to Switzerland.
Maybe the best would be to contact the swiss authorities ?

See You

Vince



*********************************************



LUFTWAFFE RECONNAISSANCE PLANES SHOOT DOWN OVER FRANCE ON NOVEMBER 23, 1939




Study by Vincent DOMERGUE


With the help of Loïc BECK and Robert SOULAT


On November 23, 1939, 8 german reconnaissance airplanes were shoot down over France.

2 planes were He 111, and 6 planes were Do 17.
- One Do 17 from Stab/KG2 by the two 73 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One He 111 from Stab/KG53 shot down by two 73 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One Do 17 from 3.(F)/122 shot down by one 73 Squadron Hurricane I,
- One Do 17 from 3.(F)/22 shot down by two 1 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One He 111 from 2.(F)122 shot down by six allied airplanes (two 1 Squadron Hurricanes I, one 73 Squadron Hurricane I, 3 GC II/5 Curtiss H-75A),
- One Do 17 from 4.(F)/122 shot down by three 1 Squadron Hurricanes I,
- One Do 17 from 5.(F)/122 shot down by two GC II/6 Morane Saulnier 406,
- One Do 17 from 1.(F)/123 shot down by one GC II/3 Morane Saulnier 406.

One the 26 german crew members :
- 13 were KIA (7 unidentified graves),
- 10 were made POW in France,
- 3 escaped to Switzerland in which they were retained up to June 1940 (identities unknown).

We have to notice that the first articles were made on November 24 (“Le Figaro” for example) and that the 8 crashes were “fully” documented with only a few errors (model of airplane, location, and who shoot down the german airplanes).
The Royal Air Force power was clearly shown with 6 of the 8 aircrafts that were shoot down.

The french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” showed some of the planes shoot down on November 23, but also on November 21.
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
14.40>14.43 : “Le Figaro” November 25, 1939 headline
14.44> 15.19 : Plane 3, Do 17P shot down by Kain, November 23, 1939
15.20>15.53 : unidentified Do 17 (maybe Plane 1 or Plane 4 ?)
15.54>17.35 : unidentified Do 17 (maybe Plane 1 or Plane 4 ?)
16.30>17.00 : Do 17P from 3.(F)/22 shot down on November 21, 1939 (the crew was able to land safely the Do 17, and was taken POW) by Sergent Edouard Salès (shown at the end of the film !) and Sous-Lieutenant René Trémolet from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A).
http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_sales_e.php
The wreckage of this Do 17 was heavily photographied and filmed, and was taken back to Paris. It is shown for example in “Match” magazine N°74 from November 30, 1939.

NOTA : two Do 17 crash sites are presented (15.20>15.53 then 15.54>17.53) and those can be the two Do 17 planes listed as Plane 1 and Plane 4.
Both crash sites show heavily destroyed wreckages.
It can’t be :
2) He 111 crashed in plain (pictures don’t match)
3) already shown in the newsreel (14.44>15.19)
5) He 111 crashed in plain (pictures don’t match)
6) Do 17 landed safely in plain, pilot unhurt
7) Do 17 landed in plain, crew unhurt (pictures don’t match)
8) Do 17 crashed and the crew was able to escape to Switzerland (pictures seemed to not match)
No other Do 17 was shot down over France the previous days.


*********************************************

Plane 1 : Do 17Z
Unit : Stab/KG2
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : ???
Crew 1 : Oberleutnant Alfred Winter, KIA [buried in Niederbronn-Les-Bains, Block 33 Reihe 11 Grab 412]
Crew 2 : ???, KIA [buried in Niederbronn-Les-Bains ?]
Crew 3 : ???, KIA [buried in Niederbronn-Les-Bains ?]

Date : November 23, 1939 (2 PM)
Crash site : Audun-Le-Roman / Sancy / Trieux

Picture in have : ???

Attaqued by :
Capitaine Jean Accart from GC I/5 (Curtiss H-75A)

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer John Evelyn “???” Scoular from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant John “???” Winn from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) Scoular said that he visited the crash site, but said it was in "Hagéville" (a Do 17P was shot down there, please see Plane 4). It is possible that the information about the crash of Plane 1 and Plane 4 are inverted.
B) The surfcity.kund.dalnet.se website is listing the crash site as “Saucy-Le-Haut”, when the crashplace.de website is listing it as “Sancy-Le-Haut”.
C) The names of the two other KIA airmen are still unknown, but they are more likely buried near Winter in Niderbronn-Les-Bains. The problem is that Winter is said to have been KIA in Hagéville (see Plane 4).
D) The wreckage of a Do 17 with the partial identification code ??+4? (“4” in dark – black ? – with a yellow or white line around it) is shown in the french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” and it can be from this Do 17 or from 4) Plane.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.crashplace.de
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_scoular.htm
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
Batailles aériennes N°3

*********************************************

Plane 2 : He 111H-1
Unit : Stab/KG53
Werk Nummer : 5262
Identification code : ???
Crew 1 : Oberleutnant Friedrich-Wilhelm Franke, POW (parachuted)
Crew 2 : ??? Ernst Domanski, WIA/POW (parachuted)
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier Alfred Borrmann, KIA [buried in Boulay-Moselle then moved to Niederbronn-Les-Bains, Block 33 Reihe 11 Grab 369]
Crew 4 : Unteroffizier Max Wagner, KIA [buried Boulay-Moselle then moved to Niederbronn-Les-Bains, Block 33 Reihe 11 Grab 368]

Date : November 23, 1939 (12 AM)
Crash site : Macker / Boulay-Moselle / Varize

Pictures I have : two

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Newell “Fanny” Norton from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant Cyril Norman Stanley “???” Campbell from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) The exact location of the crash is between the Boulay-Moselle > Varize road and the Boulay-Moselle > Halling-Lès-Boulay, near Macker. The field location is called “Börnchen”.
B) Various similar articles about the crash were published in french newspapers, amongst them “Ouest-Éclair” (various editions) issue of December 14, 1939 and “Paris Soir” issue of December 13, 1939.
C) A postcard (one of the two known pictures) was also published, and as in the french newspapers, it gave the air victory to french pilots !
D) Strangely the two He 111 shot down on November 23 crashed near Macker and… Königsmacker and were shot down by the same pilot ! Many errors between the two shot downs are due to these coincidences.
E) The picture on page 4 of “Historica N°25” is showing the He 111 of… Königsmacker (with the info of the He 111 shoot down in Macker).
F) It is confirmed by two witnesses that two Hurricanes were chasing the He 111, so Campbell and Norton shot down together the same He 111.
G) The two KIA crew members are buried in two adjacent graves in Niederbronn-Les-Bains.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.ci-as.eu/albert-schweitzer/presentation/cimetiere-militaire/cimetiere.html
http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_raf_orton_n.php
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=244414;article=7467
Batailles aériennes N°3
Historica N°25
Boulay-Moselle by Paul Bajetti & friends
Personal story of Robert Soulat

*********************************************


3) Plane : Do 17P
Unit : 3.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : 30321
Identification code : F6+HL
Crew 1 : Oberfeldwebel Baptist Schlapp, WIA/POW
Crew 2 : Unterofficier Helmut-Heinz Gründling, WIA/POW
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier Alfred Molek, WIA/POW

Date : November 23, 1939 (10 AM)
Crash site : La Besace / Raucourt-Et-Flaba

Picture I have : one

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Edward James “Cobber” Kain from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) The Do 17P was able to make a safe landing, and the crew had the time to destroy the plane with incendiary grenades and then surrended to… a passing-by peasant with his fork !
Location is called “Le Fond De Bériotte”.
B) The french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” is showing a long report filmed in location, with the presence of Kain, the peasant, and two of the german crew members !
C) The luftwaffedata.co.uk website do not list this aircraft shoot down.
D) The crash site is listed as “Conflans” on the cieldegloire.com website, and the aircraft from 3.(F)/22.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.crashplace.de
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-11080.html
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26637
http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_kain_e_j.php
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
Batailles aériennes N°3
Historica N°25

*********************************************

Plane 4 : Do 17P
Unit : 3.(F)/22
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : ???
Crew 1 : Feldwebel Franz Hallauer, KIA [Reillon]
Crew 2 : Feldwebel Siegfried Dressler, KIA [Reillon]
Crew 3 : Gefreiter Wolfgang Schüz, KIA [Reillon]

Date : November 23, 1939 (2 PM)
Crash site : Haumont-Les-Lachaussée / Hagéville

Picture I have : ???

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Mark Henry “Hilly” Brown from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Squadron Leader Patrick John Handy “Bull” Halahan from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) The first two crewmen are listed as dead in “Sancy-Le-Haut”, which is the location of Plane 1. The last crewman is listed as dead in Longwy. It is possible that the informations about the crash of Plane 1 and Plane 4 are inverted.
B) On the french newpaper “Le Figaro” of November 25, Hagéville is written “Angeville”.
C) The luftwaffedata.co.uk is listing erroneously one of their missing planes as being shot down in Haumont-Les-Lachaussée.
D) The wreckage of a Do 17 with the partial identification code ??+4? (“4” in dark – black ? – with a yellow or white line around it) is shown in the french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939” and it can be from this Do 17 or from Plane 1.

Sources :
http://www.volksbund.de
http://www.tourisme-meurtheetmoselle.fr/fr/fugue,art-et-patrimoine/cimetiere-franco-allemand-de-reillon,742000345
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
http://www.forums.luftwaffedata.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=575&view=previous
http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_001.php
http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/brown/#.Uk8w_K9OKUk
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
Batailles aériennes N°3

*********************************************

Plane 5 : He 111H-2
Unit : 2.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : F6+FK
Crew 1 : Leutnant R. Aeckerle, KIA [grave location unknown]
Crew 2 : Unteroffizier A. Gumpp, KIA [grave location unknown]
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier T. Blattmann, KIA [grave location unknown]
Crew 4 : Obergefreiter A. Schidlitzki, KIA [grave location unknown]

Date : November 23, 1939 (before 12 AM)
Crash site : Königsmacker

Picture I have : one

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer Newell “Fanny” Norton from 73 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Flying Lieutenant George Hugo “Formby” Plinston from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant Arthur Victor “Taffy” Clowes from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergent Paul Audrain from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A)
Adjudant Paul De Montgolfier from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A)
Sergent André Bouhy from GC II/5 (Curtiss H-75A)

Notas :
A) Aeckerle is the only one listed (as MIA in Poland ?) on volksbund.de.
B) See Plane 2 for the various errors made between the two He 111 shot down on November 23. For example on the cieldegloire.com the He 111 is listed as being the one from Boulay. On the “Batailles aériennes N°3” the two He 111 are lislabelled. The picture on “Historica N°25” is the He 111 from Königsmacker, but is presented as the one from Boulay.
C) One of the french fighter damaged by mistake the Hurricane of Clowes who was able to land safely.

Sources :
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26637
http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_raf_orton_n.php
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=244414;article=7467
http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_001.php
http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_2_05.php
Batailles aériennes N°3
Historica N°25

*********************************************

Plane 6 : Do 17P
Unit : 4.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : F6+HM
Crew 1 : Unteroffizier Klaus Ehlers, KIA after he parachuted [grave location unknown]
Crew 2 : Unteroffizier Alfred Röder, WIA/POW (parachuted)
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier Arno Frankenberger, POW

Date : November 23, 1939 (10.30 AM)
Crash site : Vienne-La-Ville / Moiremont

Picture I have : ???

Shoot down by :
Flying Officer John Ignatius “Killy” Kilmartin from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Sergeant Francis Joseph “???” Soper from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)
Flying Officer Cyril Dampier “Pussy” Palmer from 1 Squadron (Hurricane I)

Notas :
A) Two members of the crew parachuted, but Ehlers didn’t survive. Frankenberger was able to shot down (!) Palmer then landed the burning Do 17. Frankenberger went back to his unit after the fall of France.
B) The return fire from the Do 17 which was behind the Hurricane of Palmer was well recorded as it was decided after flying tests that back armour will be provided to all the English fighters (german fighters already had such protection).

Sources :
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26637
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-11080.html
http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_001.php
http://en.ww2awards.com/person/41709
http://books.google.fr/books?id=Ks_dyu0wjqQC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=Flying+O fficer+Cyril+Palmer&source=bl&ots=qABTt5nt5-&sig=ttNF0BMFyPehW8PynvL0dWvU1lY&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=9z5 PUoa3BOKH0AXRuYCoDw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Fl ying%20Officer%20Cyril%20Palmer&f=false
Batailles aériennes N°3

*********************************************

Plane 7 : Do 17P
Unit : 5.(F)/122
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : F6+HM
Crew 1 : Lieutnant K. Behnke, POW
Crew 2 : Unteroffizier H. Schrutek, POW
Crew 3 : Unteroffizier A. Hermann, POW

Date : November 23, 1939 (3.20 PM)
Crash site : Bras-Sur-Meuse

Picture I have : one

Shoot down by :
Sergent Chef Pierre Le Gloan from GC II/6 (Morane Saulnier 406)
Sous-Lieutenant Robert Martin from GC II/6 (Morane Saulnier 406)

Sources :
http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_3_06.php
http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_le_gloan_p.php
http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/Historique%20GC%203_6.htm
http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/Pierre%20LE%20GLOAN.htm
http://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl._Gr._122_Nov_1939
Batailles aériennes N°3
Les ailes françaises 1939-1945 N°2

*********************************************

Plane 8 : Do 17P
Unit : 1.(F)/123
Werk Nummer : ???
Identification code : ??+4?
Crew 1 : ???, escaped to Switzerland, liberated in June 1940
Crew 2 : ???, escaped to Switzerland, liberated in June 1940
Crew 3 : ???, escaped to Switzerland, liberated in June 1940

Date : November 23, 1939 (???)
Crash site : Côtebrune / Bouclans

Picture I have : two

Shoot down by :
Lieutenant Maurice Bissoudre from GC II/3 (Morane Saulnier 406)

Notas :
A) The crew is listed as “dead” on initial allied reports.
B) The crash location is maybe shown on the french newsreel “Journal de guerre N°9 / November 24 1939”. The crash location is listed on “Le Figaro” newspaper of November 25 as “Courtebrune” with a picture of the wreckage.
C) Another picture of the wreckage is showing the partial identification code ??+4? (with “4” in yellow or white).

Sources :
http://www.ecpad.fr/journal-de-guerre-9-semaine-du-24-novembre-1939
http://www.bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/Victoires_fichiers/Biard(low).htm
http://www.cieldegloire.com/gc_2_03.php
http://www.histavia21.net/HISTAV2/DOUBCRASHS.htm
http://bibert.fr/Joseph_Bibert_fichiers/1939_11_25%20Figaro.pdf
http://www.crashplace.de
Batailles aériennes N°3
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