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  #11  
Old 27th July 2005, 20:15
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Thumbs up Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Hi Jan,
Glad you are not fed-up yet, but to some this is a very special subject, which is just a very small part of a very large picture.

I'll leave it to Rod to answer your ULTRA question.
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  #12  
Old 27th July 2005, 20:20
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Thanks SES, but I think that sooner or later I would need your consultation(s) as soon as I will go into ULTRA stuff ...
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  #13  
Old 27th July 2005, 20:30
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Jan, you are more than welcome on or off board.

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  #14  
Old 28th July 2005, 00:11
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Jan

ULTRA files are only sorted by dates, each period being stored on one microfilm, in so covering radio traffic regarding air, ground and sea situation. The only way to get necessary data on LW is to sift through the microfilm roll that covers dates you are interested in.
Messages on LW include reports about operations for a particular day, orders of battle and a lot of miscellaneous stuff like orders from/for ARCs and so on.
A daunting, but very satisfying task with lots of up and downs considering what you are after.
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  #15  
Old 28th July 2005, 02:48
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Hi,

The ULTRA I have is from HW 5, which is on paper at the National Archives. It seems to be the low-level material, while HW 1 is the high-level material sent to Churchill.

For those working on aircraft databases and loss databases, the ULTRA in HW 5 is an essential source. For example, from HW 5/473 is the following (undated, but approximately 20 April 1944):

Undated: Germany: FW 190 A-6 W.Nr 551 130 ‘Yellow 2 + ’ of III./J.G. 1 (Lippspringe) 65% damage, sent for repairs after forced landing.


Also in HW 5/473 is this:

16.04.44: Eastern Front: I. Fliegerkorps IA to Jafü Fliegerkorps 1 Mamaia. 7 FW 190s for I./S.G. 10 are ready for collection from Foscani North.


Daily strength returns from Luftwaffe units very often feature W.Nr and marking details, and mention losses as well.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

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  #16  
Old 28th July 2005, 13:26
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Guys,

thank you guys, would you please describe me the procedure how to pucharse ULTRA microfilms?

thanks

Jan
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  #17  
Old 28th July 2005, 13:37
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Bobek
would you please describe me the procedure how to pucharse ULTRA microfilms?
I think that the UK National Archives website will explain the ordering system.

If it wasn't clear from the other posts, the file series with the "Main series of reports to Allied Commands" is DEFE3. (This is the series that I have spent most time with).

Details of each file are on the NA website.

Someone mentioned that the messages are in date order but that is the date the decrypted report was issued. This could be some days after the original message was sent, so if you are interested in a particular event, you may need files for a few days later to see if there is a decrypt.

Files contain 250 signals each (usually the traffic from about 3 days) and there can be from one to four files on a single reel of microfilm.
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  #18  
Old 28th July 2005, 14:31
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Hello!

Excuse me stepping into your thread. I'd like to use the opportunity to as a ULTRA question from mr. Beale.

Do the ULTRA decrypt messages catch anything of the transfer of Stab., I and II Gruppe SG 4 from Italy to Baltic area? Transfer taking place 1.7.1944 (July 1st). I would be especially interested if there is anything about the markings (changes) of the planes.

Photos also show SG 4 Fw 190s in field apllied (brown?) camouflage just before the period (May-June?) and it is of interest if this was retained. Similar interest for the I/SG4 (Stab?) Mickey Mouse emblem.

Yes, I have asked this even before. Lost some data in HD crash year or two ago plus am interested if anything new has appeared since.


With Best Regards,
Kari Lumppio
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  #19  
Old 28th July 2005, 14:37
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Thanks, I go ahead with 1.8.1943
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  #20  
Old 29th July 2005, 00:44
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Re: Luftwaffe data from ULTRA

Firstly, SES, thanks for your feedback on the Air Ministry report. As mentioned previously, such reports are the best estimate of what Air Ministry Intelligence thought was going on and you have highlighted perfectly the pitfalls of using such material - it can be used as a starting point but all such information should be checked and validated against another independant source.

Anoher such example are the Operational Research Section estimates of cause of loss for missing Bomber Command aircraft on night raids (as contained in the ORS Interception Tactics Reports and Final Reports of Night Raids). Of course, these are based on reports by returning crews but even in March 1945, for example, 30-50% of losses at night are still attributed to flak. IMHO, this figure includes attacks by night fighters from below using dim tracer (and thus being described as light flak by returning crews).

However, some clarifying points:

The intrepretation by ADI of the captured Duisburg flak map was that it had the potential Oboe course lines marked on it, based on the positions of the Oboe ground stations. It was assumed that to correctly predict the course of an Oboe-equipped aircraft, the broadcasting stations being used would have to be known in order to know which course lines were being used. It was further assumed that this technique could be more accurate than straight plotting by interrogation. I am not saying this is neccessarily a correct assumption but only what the report is saying.

With regards to the late war H2S usage, the operational orders and Interception Tactics reports that I have for Jan-Mar 45 make it clear that signals silence was imposed up to the frontier so that H2S etc was only used in enemy territory. In March 1945, for example, the PFF was generally NOT laying ground markers for turning points (and I have confirmed this with ex-aircrews) and the radar signals ban equally applied to them. Of course, individual crews did break the rules and thus gave the Luftwaffe the opportunity to detect signals. In the main, many bomber streams, based on W/T sigint, were not clearly plotted early, or at least not until after they had passed through the mandrel screen and when the usual tactics of ,firstly, sending in a shallow penetrating force, followed by a deeper penetration force, both via France and/or Belguim, the latter force was usually not heard to be plotted until well over the frontier. The trend that followed is that if the initial penetration was shallow (i.e. to the Ruhr), losses where generally light as the night fighters could not get into position to intercept in time but when the penetration was deep, or took a deeper route, the first bomber stream often suffered heavy losses while the later stream had a comparitively easier time of it.

IMHO, some of the successful inflitrations of night fighters into the bomber stream in March 1945, owed just as much to fortuitous initial positioning of n/fs around beacons and/or correct analysis of intentions (based on repeated operational patterns of Bomber Command) as to early and clear detection of the bomber stream route.

If you are prepared to wait for the publication of Dr. Theo Boiten's 'Nachtjagd War Diaries', late next year, you will find some quite detailed descriptions of the course of some of these nightly air battles, including details of the moves by the fighter controllers.

For Jan,

With regards to ordering microfilm duplicates of ULTRA from DEFE 3 at the British National Archives, firstly, you will need to find the files that you are after in the online catalogue. You can either search or browse the DEFE 3 entries (of which there are many!). To search, for example:

http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp

Word or Phrase: German
Year Range: the year range you are interested in
Department or Series code: DEFE 3

Such a search should bring up all the entries for that year so you need to find the correct dates. Beware, any reference you find must be under the "MAIN SERIES OF SIGNALS CONVEYING INTELLIGENCE TO ALLIED COMMANDS. BASED ON INTERCEPTED RADIO MESSAGES." - you can verify this if you open an individual entry and look under the 'Full Details' Tab.


Copies of documents, in paper, microfilm and digital format can be ordered via:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/r...e=ddmenu_shop3

You will have to register first to make a request for an estimate. The ordering system is easy to navigate and:

1. a request for an estimate for paper copies costs GBP10 (deducted from total payable if you go ahead and order). Copies from up to five different files can be requested.

2. a request for an estimate for microfilm costs GBP20 (deducted from total payable if you go ahead and order). With ULTRA, the microfilm original already exists and thus costs GBP1.80 per metre to duplicate (where no microfilm exists then it costs an arm and a leg to get a file microfilmed (GBP58 per hour) so whoever gets it done first pays and 'arm and a leg' while anyone requesting a copy once the microfilm is made will only pay GBP1.80 per metre!). Because the DEFE 3 ULTRA material is in roughly 3-day lots, it would pay to get material for at least a week after an event you are looking for and even that is no guarantee that the material is there.

Once you make an estimate and payment is processed (by either credit card or cheque) it will take up to two weeks for the estimate to be completed. You will be e-mailed once it is done so that you can login to their ordering system to view the estimate. Then you can make the order and payment. Once you place an order and they have processed the payment, the target turn around time for duplicating the microfilm is 19 days.

'hope this is of assistance...

Cheers

Rod

Last edited by RodM; 29th July 2005 at 00:54.
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