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  #1  
Old 10th February 2005, 14:51
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Blenheims VVKJ over Hungary 7 IV 41?

There were VVKJ attacks made on 2 Hungarian town/airfield near Seged and Pecuj on 7 IV. It was done by Blenheim of 68.(6-8 Blenheims), 69. (6 Blenheims) Grupa of 8 Puk. There are some strange data about this operation.
Amount of despached planes are presenting as following 12, 13, 14 Belenheim I ? Most probably 14, but could be 12?and Even 13?
Losses are about 8-10 Blenheim but could be even 12.

Of them 6 were shot down over Hungary (5 over Seged, 1-2 more over Pecuj, maybe 2). The rest losses were done during return flight (due to damage done over Hungary or by own A/A). So the next lost 2-4 planes, (maybe more)
5 victories over Blenheims were claimed by 5./JG 54
There were 18 crews KIA
On own airfield returned 1-2 Blenheim the rest was shot down or force landed somewhere but not returned to the unit.
.
I wonder if someone have any details about this action (amount of plane 12, or 13, or 14) and real losses

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Old 11th February 2005, 11:08
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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The cities are Szeged and Pécs.
The Hungarian, Yugoslav and German sources are different about that days events, so it's not too easy to reconstruct, what happened exactly.
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Old 12th February 2005, 12:25
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Yes I know life/reasarch is hard, not easy job, :-)

Hi
Yes, life is hard, no any sweet cookies, :-)

I know that we are talking about Seged and Pecs (in Hungarian), anyway according defenders side was cliamed all: 9 Blenheims + 1 Savoia S.79 (? -there were no S. 79 on 7 IV) -all ten shot down planes.
Over Seged were shot down more plane 5-6 then on over Pecs 1-2 (mostly by A?A Hungarian units). Offical losses VVKJ were: 7 planes + 21 KIA, but this losses do not inclued the rest damaged and force landed on own side. The next 3-5 planes?

BTW may you know about any ground losses madeby VVKS on Hungarian side. On Pecs were bombed RHAF airfiled and plane,s what about ground losses?

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Old 14th February 2005, 09:56
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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I don't know any S 79 claim, just Blenheims.
Both airfields were used by the Hungarian Air Force during the campaign.
I have the very exact crashing places in Hungarian soil (with some photos also), the claims too (fighters and Hungarian AA artillery), but as I mentioned before, it's not too easy to reconstruct, what happened exactly. I couldn't find the very exact Abschussmeldungen in the BA-MA from that day (not remained). It would be necessary to know the very exact details (I have generally the Hungarian gendarmery's reports also and in many case they are different from the German claims/confirms and evidently the ground reports are the more accurate - according to the ground reports, I know all of the exact causes of the crashes, but these details are different from the German sources in many cases) The Yugoslav sources are hazy also (in one case, the fallen crewmembers of a shot down Blenheim were not mentioned by the remained Yugoslav documents).
So, no exact answer.
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Old 14th February 2005, 11:18
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Yes big mass of info about this case

Yes I have seen in one Hungarian book (Hungarian eagle If right rember 9 Blenheim + 1 S.79 -?).
The point is that there are different data of despached planes they are from 10 up to 14 Blenheims (no any S.79) of 68,. 69 Grupa of 8. Puk.

According official VVKJ lost list they had lost only 7 Blenheims (all 21 KIA) of which sure 5, could be the next -6th over Hungarian territory, and 1 more over own (crew bailed out around Bela Crkva was killed/mordered by members of Hungarian organization “Nemzet”. Plane dropted to river Tisa.

So the 5 could be shot down over Seged + 2 over Pesc by Hungarian A/A?

The 3 planes landed on own airfiled (one in Novi Sad). So the most probably were despached only 10 bombers no more like 12, 13, 14.
from this grup 3 sure (4-th crew bailed out) Blenheims were shot down over Seged + 2 next over Pecs.

Germans if right remeber claimed (5./JG 54) 6 victories over Seged.
BTw on Pecs airfiled were lost 2 Me 109 (95%, 100% damages) there are no infor about reason of this loss (JG 54: Me 109 E-1 +E-7), maybe after the bomb run of Blenheims?

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Old 14th February 2005, 11:56
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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The 'nemzet' means nation. I have read that story somewhere, that the crew was killed by Hungarian civilians, but IMHO it's jut a tale (or a Yugoslav propaganda - BTW all of the fallen Yugoslav crewmembers were buried with full military honour by the Hungarians) A more accurate source shows to me, that this crew was shot down and killed by fighters.
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Old 15th February 2005, 12:19
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Contradictions about sources?

Hi Csaba (+ Alex :-)
I know also this story about killing of 3 VVKJ members of Belnheim on 7 IV 41 not only from Alex (also have their names).

There are 2 quite different version of this case.
Csaba says I have strong proof that Me 109 shot down the plane and only one bailed out, he was killed by accident. Belive me I have right. You do not mentioned any credible sources of it, only your opinion - OK.

Second version given by Alex telling about Hungarian involment of killing 3 wounded VVKJ mebers, as a source giving some opinion of older Yugoslavian historian and some older books resarch. This is quite popular version, if I get it from two separate Yugolsav sources (not only form Alex but in 2001 too) but the roots of it are probably the same -some historian books printed in Yugoslavia

We all reding this post know, that before 1989 the history in our countries was nice tool of "black PR": Hungarian vesus Jugoslavian and vice versa, Poles versus Ukrainin, Yugolsvain,, Rumanian ect. More political foam the real true.
Only depends of period and time of our communist regimes and authority.

Offical historic in our countries had hard working to sustain any political offences towards official political enemies. This was normal and still is obvious.
The point is that I am writing the story about VVKJ in April War for Polish readers. I want to have the true, not propaganda version (I can manage this by presenting both version and will be OK).
Could be rather nice if you Csaba support your opinion more credible source. I can not, not belive you (franly I do not see any reason of such slauther made on 7 IV by Hungarians, it was to early for such cruel action, soon after the war went mad all can happend) but this story is very strong on Yugsolavia side (killing 3 VVKJ by Hungarian).

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Old 15th February 2005, 13:17
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Mirek,

I hate to copying posts from one forum to another (Alex is not here and some former posts also were missed here). You must decide, where want to discuss that question.
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