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  #11  
Old 1st January 2005, 18:06
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Something happened in III./JG 54 after loss of Wübke etc

Hi, guys.

Something definitely happened in this unit around this time.

I am not an expert on JG 54 or their operational history, but it is clear to me that something happened around September 1942 that affected their reporting to the GenQu. Note the long timespan from date fo the accident until date of the report, for Wübke about a half year!!

I have made available data from additional entries of the Summarische Verlustemeldungen from the unit, pls see the following screenshots:

Summarische Verluste Personal

Summarische Verluste Flugzeuge


Thus in my opinion, we should be vary careful and not take the reports for this period as 'the truth', and mark the corresponding entries in our databases and documents as 'questionable'.

As both Ostermann and Wübke was unit leaders, the fact that both were out of commission after these dates, this might explain the 'errors' in the reporting if they in fact themselves used to file the reports to the Gruppenkommandeur. It also looks like Arnold Lignitz left the unit late September (I haven't checked how he did this.... transferred or WIA/KIA), but the arrival of a new Gruppenkommandeur and loss of several unit leaders could explain the 'mess' they made of their reporting at the time.

The losses we are talking about are listed here:

09.08.1942 WNr 10434
09.09.1942 WNr 10438
15.01.1943 WNr 10423
15.01.1943 WNr 10438



If anyone of You have NVM's from the unit during this period, it would be interesting to know who signed them!


Regards,
Andreas
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  #12  
Old 1st January 2005, 20:04
Dronezz Dronezz is offline
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10438

As I saw the process of recovering by my eyes from the beginning to the end I'd like to clear some interesting details.

1. I have a talk with a very old man in a village near crash place.
He said me that there was a fight 15.01.43 between one Bf-109 and 2 Yaks.
At first the german brought down the first Yak-1. (The Yak was fallen right near Bf-109's crash place) And then the other Yak-1 brought down the german Bf-109. And the Bf-109 crashed (almost vertical dive) with loud howl!!

2. There are 2 digits in vertical stabilizer remain.
The first one - 10431.
The second - 10438

3. The old man said me that KGB was very curious by this Bf-109 in early 50's. But they can't to get the plane from the depth of 11 meters.

4. It's clear for me that it was Alfred Deege in this plane. There was a letter with his name at the pocket of pilot's jacket.
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  #13  
Old 3rd January 2005, 17:40
Jens Jens is offline
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Re: 10438

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dronezz
As I saw the process of recovering by my eyes from the beginning to the end I'd like to clear some interesting details.

1. I have a talk with a very old man in a village near crash place.
He said me that there was a fight 15.01.43 between one Bf-109 and 2 Yaks.
At first the german brought down the first Yak-1. (The Yak was fallen right near Bf-109's crash place) And then the other Yak-1 brought down the german Bf-109. And the Bf-109 crashed (almost vertical dive) with loud howl!!

2. There are 2 digits in vertical stabilizer remain.
The first one - 10431.
The second - 10438

3. The old man said me that KGB was very curious by this Bf-109 in early 50's. But they can't to get the plane from the depth of 11 meters.

4. It's clear for me that it was Alfred Deege in this plane. There was a letter with his name at the pocket of pilot's jacket.
What i've found from JG-54 loss list, 10431 was flown by Uffz. Rudolf Fischer-Bütow and was shot down by LK at 29.10.1942, near Demjansk/Jerschino (100% loss). Unit was IIIStab/JG-54, pilot status MIA maybe POW?. I believe you, but why there are to numbers at the stabilizer?
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  #14  
Old 3rd January 2005, 21:07
christian christian is offline
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Hi

Hptm. Arnold Liegnitz was shot down by a rocket from a J 153 over Leningrad at 30. September 1941. He baled out and was POW, later he died in a Jail. The loss from Liegnitz was signed from Hptm. Seiler at 02. Oktober 1941.

The loss from Ostermann was also signed from Seiler at 11. August 1942. The last loss which was signed from Hptm. Seiler (12. November 1942) was Lt. Heyer 09. November 1942.

The losses from Lt. Doege and Fw. Stöber was signed from Oblt. Bob, stellvertretender Führer der Jagdgruppe, at the 19. Januar 1943.

The first signature from Major Seiler (04. März 1943) was Uffz. Twelkemeyer, he was killed at the 26. Februar 1943 between Huquelliers and Manighem.

Christian
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  #15  
Old 3rd January 2005, 21:09
Dronezz Dronezz is offline
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I suppose that the vertical stabilizer was put after repairing. Repairman took a tail of 10431, repair it and put into 10438. It's my IMHO.
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