identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!

[Courtois Laurent]

Legal disclaimer:
In accordance with the Decision of the TGI of Auch, in its judgment rendered on September 5, 2001, case Pierre Clostermann against S.A.R.L. Aeroeditions (Publication Director C.J. Ehrengardt), since the approved victories are not legally "revisable", the number of individual victories will be deemed fair and unalterable.

Presentation :

On this new thread, we will compare the claims of the Normandie-Niemen pilots and the actual losses of the Luftwaffe. It is therefore a work of identification and not of approval, a task completed since 1945 with the list drawn up by the Hunting Inspectorate.
This work is not intended to denigrate the record of the Normandie-Niemen pilots, nor that of the Soviets who fought jointly.
Our approach is simple, unambiguous and scientific, it consists of comparing the German losses in the Bundesarchives of Koblenz to the Soviet homologations taken up by the French air force.

This work has already been carried out, for those who can read between the lines, by JC Ehrengardt in the mid-1980s, for the writing of his work "Normandie-Niemen" published in 1989. The victories identified are accompanied by the corresponding losses for the Lutfwaffe , the first mention of this type appeared on July 14, 1943. Thanks to progress in cartographic studies made possible by the digitization and online posting of maps from the period, it is now possible to refine research. Some will be invalidated, others omitted due to the non-localization at the time of a toponym or the correction of a bad transcription of a Russian toponym having already undergone transliteration into German will be added.

This study has a limit, if during an air combat 10 pilots claim 10 victories, the Germans only losing 5 planes, it is scientifically impossible to determine which of the pilots really won victories. This is why this work will only draw conclusions on the total victory and not on individual results.

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Atter. Urg. -> hunter shots - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).


summary until July 16. Of 28 victories, 3 corroborated by German archives, 1 aircraft damaged and 24 non-corroborated victories



to be continued, I'm begening the July 17th

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Laurent,

I may be wrong, but am almost sure that NAGr.44 and NAGr 155 did not exist in LW archives....was it a typo here?

YOUR WORK seems however quite interesting and amazing...keep going....

A.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Maybe you meant Aufkl.Gr.14 and NAGr 15?
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/nagr14.htm
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/nagr15.htm
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufklg14.html

[Adriano Baumgartner]

So far 15 claims and 000% of matches....

[focusfocus]

Great work Laurent!,I'm looking forward to the next part!

Incredible!,the wording of the court decision...I almost fell off my chair!!

Best Regards
Michel

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Laurent,

I may be wrong, but am almost sure that NAGr.44 and NAGr 155 did not exist in LW archives....was it a typo here?

YOUR WORK seems however quite interesting and amazing...keep going....

A.

Hello Adriano,

the error comes from the fact that I copied and pasted it from my site and that the note indexes were transformed into numbers, I will correct it immediately. These are indeed the Aufkl.Gr.4 and NAGr 15

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by focusfocus

Great work Laurent!,I'm looking forward to the next part!

Incredible!,the wording of the court decision...I almost fell off my chair!!

Best Regards
Michel

Hello Focusfocus,

Welcome to France, land of freedom! In France the work of historians is increasingly limited by law and censorship (by limitations on access to sources).

We wonder what the competence of a judge can be to know if a pilot has shot down this or that plane?

Concerning the Closterman CJE case, the latter claimed 1,000,000 francs in damages and interest. He only received 100,000 which almost put aéro-éditions near of bankrupt. Pilots from the Normandie-Niemen, pushed by a competing author of the CJE, tried to take the civilian side and also attack this poor CJE.

CJE was the only author to have carried out real historical work on Normandy-Niemen and this since 1988, that is to say before the end of the Cold War and before the internet!!! I'm not enough of a specialist in the other subjects he worked on to judge them, but there's no reason why it wouldn't also be of very high quality.

This judgment therefore appears to be a stain on a state that claims to be a democracy...

attached is an extract from this unfair judgment :

Decision of the TGI of Auch, judgment rendered on September 5, 2001, case of Pierre Clostermann S.A.R.L. Aeroeditions: I on demand … II discussions and reasons:

1. On the nullity of the document initiating proceedings …

2. On the limitation exception Whereas, independently of the special provisions concerning the press and publishing, and having regard to the rights of the public, in the event of invalidation the author of a work relating historical facts engages, where appropriate, his responsibility towards persons concerned when the presentation of the theses supported manifests, through distortion, falsification or serious negligence, a flagrant disregard for the truth; Whereas in this case the criticized article relates historical facts and consequently the law of July 29, 1881 is also without application, the court seized having only to determine whether the conditions imposed by arts. 1382 and 1383 of the civil code are combined;

3. On the merits of the request Whereas the incriminated article on page 55 of the work: “French fighter pilots 39-45” brings to a total of 12 victories identified with certainty for the benefit of Mr. Pierre Closterman, while he claims some 32;

Whereas the historical service of the Air Force, making a distinction between certain victories and probable victories and damaged aircraft, attributes to Mr. Clostermann 19 individual victories, 5 probable individual victories, 7 enemy aircraft damaged in combat;

Added to this are 14 sure victories, 4 planes destroyed on the ground, 3 planes probably destroyed on the ground, 13 planes damaged on the ground, for a total of 33 sure victories;

Whereas the track record of each of the pilots which appears in this work (page 8) has been established according to the list of the hunting inspection and that it constitutes the official source;

Whereas this table was drawn up on November 1, 1945 by Fighter Command and signed by Air Vice Marshall H. J. Broadhurst; Whereas, moreover, the incriminated article also refers to a book entitled Aces High and signed C. Shores and C. Williams – Grub Street, London 1994;

Whereas given the difference between the sure victories claimed by Pierre Clostermann and those, where applicable, noted by the authors of the book “French Fighter Pilots 39 – 45”, it was up to them to hear Mr. Pierre Clostermann in a contradictory manner, this so that he can justify himself in view of the documents held by him on the claimed victories;

Whereas in fact a historian must not only verify the quality of his sources but also give voice to the still living famous character whose epic he is precisely contesting; Whereas this has not been done; Whereas, therefore, the defendant with regard to Mr. Clostermann has presented a thesis which does not allow, contrary to what she writes in the heading “Warning”, to say: “that 90% of the information contained in this book are accurate. That any additional information or correction to improve this percentage will be welcome”;

Whereas such a reservation for a normally prudent and diligent historian cannot admit 100% of the information that he develops in his work must in fact be corroborated by objective elements, which is not the case;

Whereas therefore this “warning” on the part of the authors, even if not malicious, constitutes a fault having regard to the object of this book which was to list all the French and foreign fighter pilots who served in the army of the air and naval aeronautics as well as French pilots engaged in the R.A.F. having belonged to the Free French Air Forces who were officially credited with at least one confirmed victory between September 1939 and May 1945; Whereas taking into account the notoriety of the applicant who has benefited from

the most prestigious decorations awarded to a foreigner within the framework of the Royal Air Force or in France since he was decorated by General de Gaulle with the Cross of Commander of the Legion of Honor in a personal capacity and that he is the subject of 35 of a minority of French personalities currently holder of the Dignity of Grand Cross of the Legion of Honor in a military capacity; that he is also a Companion of the Liberation, the damage resulting from the fault committed by SARL AERO EDITIONS is considerable and will be rightly repaired by a sum of 100,000 francs;


Whereas also that it is appropriate to order the publication of this decision in the journal Aviation Magazine, le Figaro Magazine, France Observateur, Le fana de l'aviation, Aerojournal, and this at the expense of the defenders without each publication exceeds 5,000 francs; … For these reasons :....

[Nick Beale]

So where does that leave the detailed article on Clostermann's claims in Avions #227 (Janvier–Février 2019) which came to a total of 14-4-8 aerial victories?

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

So where does that leave the detailed article on Clostermann's claims in Avions #227 (Janvier–Février 2019) which came to a total of 14-4-8 aerial victories?

Hello,

"Whereas in fact a historian must not only verify the quality of his sources but also give voice to the still living famous character whose epic he is precisely contesting; "

I think Clostermann's death extinguishes much of the possibility of prosecution.

The family can still file a complaint for harm to the memory of the deceased, but it would be more complicated. Above all, it was the personality of the plaintiff that counted more than the reality of the facts (class justice);

In addition, Clostermann's son, who is classified as far right, went to support the Pro-Russian movement in Donetsk around 2016, which makes him a sub-citizen who would have little chance in a left-wing justice system and who shames the Russophiles and the nationalist extreme right (political justice).

[Franek Grabowski]

The case of CJE was a bit different as he put in doubt the number of victories officially credited to Clostermann. This had nothing to overclaim.
As long as there is no accusation of fraud on part of NN pilots, there should be no legal problems resulting from an attempt to match credited victories to actual recorded losses. That said there is always a marigin of error in such attempts, especially given how incomplete German records are. Otherwise ideal would be to identify German units involved and provide their after action reports, regardless if there were losses or not.