Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation

Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22nd August 2014, 13:39
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 228
GuerraCivil is on a distinguished road
Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

I would be interested to compare José Maria Bravo´s claims with Nationalist/Italian/Legion Condor loss records. Here his claims - some of them I have checked already:

25.9.1937 - Fiat CR 32
26.9.1937 - half-share of Fiat CR 32
12.10.1937 - Fiat CR 32
22.10.1937 - floatplane, unidentified type
22.1.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

7.2.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (Bf 109 piloted by W. Balthasar was shot down on 7.2.1938 over Teruel, but according to Patrick Laureau it fell victim to the return-fire of SB-2 bomber, maybe Bravo was also involved?)

21.4.1938 - He 111
25.4.1938 - half-share of He 111 (seems to match with the Legion Condor He 111 loss on that day near Valencia)

25.4.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
25.4.1938 - Savoia Marchetti SM. 79
10.6.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
18.7.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
19.7.1938 - half-share of Fiat CR 32
24.8.1938 - Fiat CR 32
3.11.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 8th December 2014, 20:46
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 228
GuerraCivil is on a distinguished road
Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

Here an update of the so far confirmation of air victories of J.M. Bravo:

25.9.1937 - Fiat CR 32 (AFAIK, not such enemy loss, at least not by Aviazione Legionaria)

26.9.1937 - half-share of Fiat CR 32 (AFAIK, not such enemy loss, at least not by Aviazione Legionaria)

12.10.1937 - Fiat CR 32 (this may well match with one of the five Fiat CR 32 losses of Aviazione Legionaria on that day)

22.10.1937 - floatplane, unidentified type (AFAIK, not such enemy loss)

22.1.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

7.2.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (Bf 109 piloted by W. Balthasar was shot down on 7.2.1938 over Teruel, but according to Patrick Laureau it fell victim to the return-fire of SB-2 bombers, maybe Bravo was also involved?)

21.4.1938 - He 111 (perhaps, but needs more digging)

25.4.1938 - half-share of He 111 (might match with the Legion Condor He 111 loss on that day near Valencia)

25.4.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

25.4.1938 - Savoia Marchetti SM. 79 (AFAIK, no such loss)

10.6.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

18.7.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

19.7.1938 - half-share of Fiat CR 32 (perhaps)

24.8.1938 - Fiat CR 32 (might be a Fiat CR 32 of Aviazione Legionaria lost on 23.8.1938?)

3.11.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

This has been a frustfrating process. José Maria Bravo has been one of the most known Spanish Republican aces and he was a impressive personality. I personally would have hoped to find confirmation to all or most of his air victory claims. So far the only really "confirmed" case seem to be one Fiat CR 32 shot down on 12.10.1937 and perhaps the half-share of He 111 on 25.4.1938. If someone is more informed on Bravo´s air victories and their confirmation, please share the info.

Notes based on:
Alcofar Nassaes: La aviación legionaria en la guerra española
Patrick Laureau: Condor - The Luftwaffe in Spain 1936-39
Rafael A Permuy Lopez: Spanish Republican Aces
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/scw.htm


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 6th January 2015, 03:39
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

hi,
i found some info for you, 2 CR.32 losses in 24.8.38:

cr-32 3-97 Chapaprieta , muerto en accion (KIA)
cr-32, 3-135 Lacour, prisionero. (POW)

the other claim was by Tarazona

place: Mora del Ebro

hope it helps...
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 6th January 2015, 22:56
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 228
GuerraCivil is on a distinguished road
Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

Thanks, where did you find the info?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 6th January 2015, 23:22
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

hi,

in this blog:

http://mrvalv.blogspot.com.es/

i contact with the person if he close the blog or continue....
he have many pdfs of the planes you can download from A-N,
with many info of different sources...

if you can´t see the pdfs send me your mail and i send it to you...
hope it helps
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8th January 2015, 16:26
fran's Avatar
fran fran is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 307
fran
Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

The shot down Fiat 3-97 (c/n.787) was piloted by Fernando Arrechea Belzunce who survived.
The plane piloted by Eduardo Chapaprieta Inglada was 3-135 (c/n.982) and also survided (became engineer after the war)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichalski View Post
hi,
i found some info for you, 2 CR.32 losses in 24.8.38:

cr-32 3-97 Chapaprieta , muerto en accion (KIA)
cr-32, 3-135 Lacour, prisionero. (POW)

the other claim was by Tarazona

place: Mora del Ebro

hope it helps...
regards
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 9th January 2015, 00:32
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 380
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

hi,

many thanks for your extra-info

regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22nd January 2015, 11:42
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 228
GuerraCivil is on a distinguished road
Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

Alfredo Loguloso´s Fiat CR 32 Aces of the Spanish Civil War (2010) mentions that J. M. Bravo (most probably) shot down the Fiat CR 32 of Nationalist ace Julio Salvador on 3.10.1938 near Fayón (Salvador taken POW, survived). However this is not mentioned in Bravo´s "official claims" - could be that it has been forgotten? - quite strange because Salvador was famous ace. Many sources of the airwar of Spanish Civil War are contradictory and we are more or less left guessing what actually may have happened...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web (new version) Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 66 12th May 2020 14:14
Air war over North Africa Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 13 3rd November 2013 01:34
Discussion on the air war in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 14 1st April 2005 19:47
The Effect of Numerical Superiority in the Air War Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 11 3rd March 2005 09:39
Eastern vs Western Front (was: La-7 vs ???) Christer Bergström Allied and Soviet Air Forces 66 1st March 2005 20:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net