14.(Jabo)/JG 5

[CJE]

Bonjour,

14.(Jabo)/JG 5 was renamed 4./SG 5 on 07.02.44 and then...?
According to some sources it became 1./SG 5, according to Werner Girbig it became 4./SG 4 between April and May 1944.
Any idea anyone?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

Chris -

There is no Feldpost listing for a 4./SG 5.

53109
(1.5.1942-19.10.1942) 1. Staffel Sturzkampfgeschwader 5,
(8.9.1943-22.4.1944) 27.10.1943 1. Staffel Schlacht-Geschwader 5,
(23.4.1944-24.11.1944) 14.6.1944 2. Staffel Nacht-Schlacht-Gruppe B. [This should be "8" instead of "B".]

The Feldpostübersicht shows no connection between a 4./SG 5 (if it existed) and SG 4. SG 4's Staffeln did not have independent Fp numbers but rather used the Fp number of the Gruppe it belonged to. Accordingly, the FpÜ cannot be used to trace the lineage of the Staffeln that belonged to SG 4.

L.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Chris

According to Eric Mombeek 14.(Jabo)/JG 5 became 4./SG 5 on 19.2.1944 and after that 1./SG 5. This conflicts of course with the usual date 7.2.1944.

Larry

In your book you say that 4./SG 5 was renamed 2./NSGr 8 and then you go on to explain it was the personnel from 4./SG 5 which formed 2./NSGr 8 while the aircraft came from 1./SG 5
All other sources I have state 1./SG 5 became 2./NSGr 8 while 4./SG 5 became the new 1./SG 5. Looking at what you say above it seems you now go along with the 'old' facts. Do I interpret this correctly?

Cheers
Stig

[Merlin]

This is what I have:

L53109
Formed 07.43 as 1./StG 5 18.10.43 => 1./SG 5 8.05.44 => 2./NSGr 8

L49522
14.(JB)/JG 5 28.01.44 => 4./SG 5 8.05.44 => 1./SG 5 6.01.45 => 9./KG 200

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Stig,

No, what I said above in my posting to Chris was a single source evaluation using just the FpÜ to show that this can not be relied on in this case to show the lineage. Normally, the FpÜ is a reliable source for tracking units that have their own FpN and are re-designated (renamed) one or more times over the course of the war.

As for what did happen to 14.(Jabo)/JG 5, I stand behind by account given in the book. I will repeat the relevant portion below, but this time with the footnotes. They corroborate each other and tie in with the Organisations-Abt./Ob.d.L. document that I got from Nick Beale.

I./SG 5

Formation. (Oct 43)
Formed 18 October 1943 at Nautsi/N Finland by renaming I./St.G. 5. On 7 February 1944 a 4. Staffel was formed by re-designating 14.(Jabo)/JG 5, which was equipped with Focke-Wulf FW 190 fighter-bombers. The rest of the Gruppe was equipped with Junkers Ju 87D dive-bombers. ¹
...................
7 Feb 44: 14.(Jabo)/JG 5 with 14 FW 190s formally incorporated into I./SG 5 as 4./SG 5 at Petsamo/N Finland (see above). However, this had already taken place unofficially 2 to 3 weeks prior to this date. 9
15 Feb 44: 4./SG 5 now at Pontsalenjoki (Sofporog), a very forward field strip at the northwest end of Top Lake in the Kesten’ga – Loukhi sector of the front to the west of the Murmansk railway line and still there on 23 February. The Staffel was also using Alakurtti during February and March. 10
...................
24 Feb 44: 4. Staffel, operating over the Kesten’ga – Loukhi sector in Lapland, claimed 4 P-39 Airacobra fighters as the Gruppe’s first victories. 12
...................
20 Mar 44: 4.St. FW 190A-3 shot down by enemy aircraft along the Kandalaksha front to the south of Murmansk, 100%, pilot WIA. Same date, and probably the same engagement, 4. Staffel claimed a Curtiss P-40.
21 Mar 44: Gruppe now at Pontsalenjoki with 32 Ju 87Ds and 4./SG 5 detached at Alakurtti with 12 FW 190s. From here the Gruppe attacked the Murmansk railway line as well as Russian troop concentrations and positions to the east of the Finnish border. 15
27 Mar 44: 4.St. FW 190A-3 belly landed at Fp.Alakurtti due to engine failure, pilot WIA.
6 Apr 44: Gruppe pulled back and now at Kemijärvi, a better equipped and more permanent airfield to the northeast of Rovaniemi. Still there on 6 May. Meanwhile, 4. Staffel was mainly at Alakurtti during April before moving to Salmijärvi/42 km SW of Petsamo (Pechenga). 16
8 May 44: 4./SG 5 renamed 2./NSGr. 8 this date at Salmijärvi. In practice, 4./SG 5 provided the personnel for 2./NSGr. 8 while 1./SG 5 provided the aircraft. There was no 4./SG 5 after this date. 17
....................
Footnotes:
¹ Dierich-VdL; Tessin-Tes; Kannapin-Feldpostübersicht.
9 Dierich-op cit; K.Maesel-op cit.
10 K.Maesel-op cit.
12 BA-MA Freiburg: Luftwaffen-Personalamt L.P.(A)5(V) (OKL Chef für Ausz. und Disziplin). 18 rolls of microfilm consisting of partial daily log sheets and summaries of Luftwaffe enemy aircraft victory claims as reported by both air and antiaircraft units to the end of 1944, many of the entries being extremely difficult to read. The material has been keyed to a data base and can be found at website tonywood.cjb.net under the short title “O.K.L. Fighter Claims”.
15 K.Maesel-op cit, Dierich-op cit.
16 K.Maesel-op cit.
17 BA-MA Freiburg: Signatur RL 2 III/59 Organisations-Abt./Lw.Führungsstab document provided by N.Beale in letter to H.L.deZeng dated 14 July 1991.

I hope this doesn't add to the confusion!

L.

[CJE]

On the contrary, I clears things up.
Thanks Larry.

[Stig Jarlevik]

And where did Eric Mombeek go wrong?
As far as I can see he has used the same sources and interviewed a lot of former JG 5 members.

Cheers
Stig

[Seaplanes]

Just a small addition to Larry deZengs post: On 8. May 1944 the 4./S.G.5 was ordered to disband. Consequently it was not re-numbered 2./N.S.Gruppe 8. However, Luftwaffe Führungsstab on the same date ordered the formation of the new 2./N.S.Gr.8. The crews of the "old" 4./S.G.5 was to form the nucleus of the new 2./N.S.Gr.8. The Fw 190 Aircraft of 4./S.G.5 was to be re-distributed between Gruppe I./S.G.5 and 1./N.S.Gr.8. The latter was in the process of converting to Ju 87 at this time, so it is not likely that any Fw 190 found its way to this unit, all of them ending up in Gruppe I./S.G.5.