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Old 20th October 2013, 06:32
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Larry Hickey
Re: [Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)


For the past several days, Vince (the source of this thread) and I have worked closely trying to clarify the recon a/c losses on 23 November 1939, and obtain good photo coverage for these crashes.

We've now assembled a collection of photos for five of the eight aircraft that came down in France on that day. The ones for which we don't have photos are the following three:

1) Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z-2. Attacked by Curtiss H-75s over Fléville during photo-reconnaissance mission and badly damaged by Capt J-M. Accart of GC I/5. Then engaged south of Jarny by F/Lt J. E. Scoular and Sgt J. Winn of No.73 Sqdn and pursued north to crash and burn out on the railway line between Audun-le-Roman and Trieux, at Sancy-le-Haut 1.10 p.m. Also attacked by Sergeant C. N. S. Campbell. (Beo) Oberlt Alfred Winter and crew all believed killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

2) 3.(F)/22 Dornier Do17P-1 (3521). Shot down by S/L P. J. H. Halahan and F/O M. H. Brown of No.1 Sqdn during reconnaissance sortie between Verdun and Metz; crashed and burned out near Haumont-lès-Lachaussée 2.00 p.m. (Ff) Fw Franz Hallauer, (Beo) Fw Siegfried Dressler, and (Bf) Gefr Wolfgang Schulz all killed. Aircraft 4N+HL 100% write-off.

3) 2.(F)/122 Heinkel He111H-2. Attacked near Saarbrücken by Hurricanes of No.1 Squadron (F/Lt G. H. F. Plinston and Sgt A. V. Clowes), together with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 (Adjt P. de Montgolfier, Adjt Audrain, and Sgt A. Bouhy). Crashed at Koenigsmacker, north-east of Thionville, 12.00 p.m. Lt Robert Aeckerle, Uffz Anton Gumpp, Uffz Theodor Blattmann, and Obergefr Alfred Schidlitzki killed. Aircraft F6+FK a write-off.

For #1, we're still seeking crew positions, names and ranks of the other men who died in this wreck. We still haven't confirmed whether the crash site was at Sancy-le-Haut or Hagéville. We also don't know the a/c code or W.Nr. of this a/c. Peter Cornwell comments: "I have neither photos of the Stab KG2 nor the 3.(F)/22 losses on 23 November 1939. As for the Stab KG2 crew details I do not have the NVM so the information that we have is based solely upon the QMG Returns which, as you know, only included officer names at that stage. Matti does not have their names listed in his database either - an omission that prompted me to describe them as ‘believed killed’. And as the VDK doesn’t do searches on date evidence alone we are stuck with what we have at present."

For #3, there is conflicting information on the a/c code. Was it F6+FK or F6+CK? Commenting on this one, Peter says: "The codes F6+FK came from SHORES’ Fledgling Eagles... & Matti has it documented as F6+CK – original sources of both unknown (to me)." Besides resolving this discrepancy, we also need the crew positions for each of the men killed aboard this a/c.

Since the crews of all three of these a/c are believed to have been killed, the wreckage was probably badly smashed, and it may be very hard to obtain useful markings information from any photos that exist of these crashes. Who can help us either with wreckage photos or further information on these three 23.11.39 Luftwaffe losses?


Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
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