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  #91  
Old 31st August 2008, 20:40
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: German & Allied radar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
Under the column labeled "Number of Squadrons".
Facts not words, please!
Quote:
Your emotional display is tiresome and I will ignore you if you cannot display some maturity to discuss the facts.
I would say it is your ignorance of facts.
Quote:
This is the RAF's own documentation and their official History. Perhaps some post war author knows better than they do the state of their forces?
Obviously, otherwise we would not need historians, would we?
Quote:
Operational flying is a combat sortie credit. Wordsmithing does not change that fact. The bullets fired at 13th Group Operational Sorties are just as deadly as though fired at 11th Group.
You do not understand the difference between operational and combat sortie. It is not the same, and does not mean engagement.
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The purpose of the table the RAF constructed was to show the operational burden of the Groups.
The table shows what RAF wanted to show at the time. Nothing more, nothing less.
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  #92  
Old 31st August 2008, 20:57
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George Hopp George Hopp is offline
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Re: German & Allied radar

Quote:
Re: German & Allied radar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp
Under the column labeled "Number of Squadrons".

Facts not words, please!
Quote:
Your emotional display is tiresome and I will ignore you if you cannot display some maturity to discuss the facts.
I would say it is your ignorance of facts.
Quote:
This is the RAF's own documentation and their official History. Perhaps some post war author knows better than they do the state of their forces?
Obviously, otherwise we would not need historians, would we?
Quote:
Operational flying is a combat sortie credit. Wordsmithing does not change that fact. The bullets fired at 13th Group Operational Sorties are just as deadly as though fired at 11th Group.
You do not understand the difference between operational and combat sortie. It is not the same, and does not mean engagement.
Quote:
The purpose of the table the RAF constructed was to show the operational burden of the Groups.
The table shows what RAF wanted to show at the time. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Franek
Well, Crumpp has shown us a large number of strength and sortie narratives and reports from both the time of the Battle of Britain and as compiled postwar. They are both impressive and seem pretty accurate when you consider the end results of the battle. What comparable data do you have?
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  #93  
Old 31st August 2008, 21:00
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Re: German & Allied radar

Lets not lower the quality of this thread by turning it into an argument.
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  #94  
Old 31st August 2008, 21:53
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Juha Juha is offline
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Re: German & Allied radar

Hello Crumpp
thanks for the U.E. document. now I think I remember the situation. Because of Hurricane production was satisfactory it was decided to rise the U.E. of Hurricane sqns to 22 a/c as well as that of few Spitfire sqns (Spitfire production wasn't rising as fast as that of Hurricanes). If you divided the 366 by 19 you get a bit over 19 as average Spit sqn U.E. But heavy losses at the end of Aug and at the first half of Sept forced to return to 18 a/c U.E. which was kept IIRC to around D-Day when it was again rised to 22.

Juha
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  #95  
Old 31st August 2008, 22:08
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: German & Allied radar

Ignoring the difference between combat and operational sortie is lowering the quality by itself. It is not about the numbers but about the knowledge behind the numbers.
If we consider the official history as the last word, how about Blenheims, Defiants and Gladiators, that were very much operational during the Battle?
The question about how many RAF Squadrons were involved in actual combat still stands unanswered.
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  #96  
Old 31st August 2008, 22:18
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Re: German & Allied radar

Hello
almost forget. In the evening of 14.9. three of the operational Spit or Hurri sqns of 10, 11 and 12 Groups were clearly understrength, 19 and 73 Sqns had 14 serviceable a/c, no u/s and 222 Sqn had 11 serviceable and 3 u/s a/c. Others had at least near 18 a/c.

Juha
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  #97  
Old 31st August 2008, 22:43
Crumpp Crumpp is offline
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Re: German & Allied radar

Quote:
thanks for the U.E. document. now I think I remember the situation. Because of Hurricane production was satisfactory it was decided to rise the U.E. of Hurricane sqns to 22 a/c as well as that of few Spitfire sqns (Spitfire production wasn't rising as fast as that of Hurricanes). If you divided the 366 by 19 you get a bit over 19 as average Spit sqn U.E. But heavy losses at the end of Aug and at the first half of Sept forced to return to 18 a/c U.E. which was kept IIRC to around D-Day when it was again rised to 22.


There were always a few Squadrons at 18 A/C. The document includes a detailed breakdown. That is one reason why operational strength was never at 100% as not all the Squadrons achieved the 22 A/C.




If you look at the document I posted earlier, it shows the rise of U.E. like you describe.

The history distinguishes between first line and second line fighters. However it does not discuss the actions of second line fighters in any detail. It concentrates on the actions of the first line fighters, the Hurricanes and Spitfires.

The history also very much recognizes its limits and acknowledges the fact it knows almost nothing and includes almost nothing of fact about the Luftwaffe situation or Order of Battle. The information is based off Ultra Intercepts and only includes the U.E. Strengths of the Luftwaffe and not the actual strengths and are likely to be wildly overestimated in many cases.

This shortcoming is pointed out by the Mr Sebastian Cox, Head of Air Historical Branch of the Ministry of Defense.

It cautions that while the British side of the battle is accurately portrayed, the Luftwaffe side is not and that one should compare the Luftwaffe side to more recent scholarship.

As this introduction was a recent addition and not found in the archive version of the official history, I have to wonder how many scholars missed that point when viewing the documents data on the Luftwaffe.

The USAAF numbered histories tell the German side in their own words with their own surviving documentation.

All the best,

Crumpp
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