Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 27th March 2007, 16:46
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,691
Jim P.
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

I'm pretty sure that that is Isachsen's machine, or at least that is how its been described in the past - from McAulay's book.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 28th March 2007, 00:30
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 831
George Hopp
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Thanks for that photo, RO. Although the book on LG 1 certainly labels it as L1+RK, looking closely at the letters to the right of the Balken Cross, I am inclined to see that 4th letter as an ‘H' rather than a ‘K.'

The narrative in Taghon, Vol. 2, p. 166, notes that the a/c of Ofw. Isachsen was shot down by your dad and F/O Shipard, but, the date is shown as 08.01.1943, not 16/17.01.43. And, as I noted in my 1st reply, the He 111 you inquired about was also shot down on 9.1.43.

"Eventually came in from dead astern and open fire at range of 100 yards with a 4 sec burst. E/A immediately caught fire in both engines and fuselage and went down vertically. No return fire experienced – own aircraft struck by pieces from E/A but no damage done. E/A identified as Ju88. Claim one Ju88 destroyed." (From your Dad's narrative)

But, Ofw. Isachsen says he was hit only in the left engine, and was able to maintain control over the a/c on single engine power. Being over the water, the crew had to decide whether to fly north or south. They decided to fly south to Africa, and after passing the coast began looking for somewhere to land. As it turned out they landed in a mine-field, but all survived. And, a short time later became PoWs.

I think that, indeed, your father's crew did score its victory on the 16/17th and shot down either the Ju 88 of Lt. Werner Schmitz, L1+FN, #142 319, which crashed into the sea, with no survivors (which would seem to agree with your father's narrative of the a/c diving vertically); or the Ju 88 of Ogefr. Scheda, L1+EN, #142 305, from which the crew was able to parachute and be taken prisoner.

Hope this helps,
George
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28th March 2007, 00:32
Oxby R's Avatar
Oxby R Oxby R is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 95
Oxby R is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

George - do you have any details on why Isachsen was forbidden to fly ?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 28th March 2007, 00:35
Oxby R's Avatar
Oxby R Oxby R is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 95
Oxby R is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Ok, thanks Jim. I take it, the correct code then, is L1+RH - bit difficult to see from the photo ? I only ask given your earlier statement :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim P. View Post
the original loss report (and maybe even Taghon) said the code was 'L1+RH', whereas a photo in McAulay's book clearly shows the code to be 'L1+RK'.
I did a little more digging on this last night, and found something else that sheds more light on 16th Jan 1943. Extract from 89's Squadron History (Auth Joe Warne) :

'On 16th Jan., F/O Shipard/FS Oxby flew V8447 with 2 passengers to Martuba No 4, (??) and returned with F/O Edwards. He was the controller that night when Shipard/Oxby scrambled in V8447 and shot down two Ju 88s withing 10 minutes around 19.30 hrs. in the area of Tobruk. One crashed on attempting to land and 3 bailed out (one being wounded). That same night, with the same controller, FSs Ronald Gilham Peteres/ Frank Halliday were also scrambled, in X8136, and attacked another Ju 88, observed by F/O Shipard. But the Beaufighter collided with the target and both aircraft went into the sea 10 miles east of Tobruk, with no survivors. It was later established that II/KLG 1 lost two Ju 88s over Tobruk.'

Still have several questions. 1. If Isachsen was one of the POWs - then who were the other two mentioned in Oxby snr's logbook ? 2. Would 'k' reports exist for the prisoner interrogations at PRO, or were these completed only for POWs shot down over Blighty ?

Last edited by Oxby R; 28th March 2007 at 00:35. Reason: typo.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 28th March 2007, 00:42
Oxby R's Avatar
Oxby R Oxby R is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 95
Oxby R is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Wow George - where DID you get all this stuff ?? Really excellent work !! I can't explain the date problem - Here's what Oxby snr's logbook entry says for the 16th Jan 43:

Date 16.1.43 V8447 Beaufighter. NFTs at 1105 and 1200. To 'Martuba with two passengers'
1900 Pilot F/O Shipard. Scramble. Two contacts 1. One Ju 88 destroyed. 2. One Ju 88 destroyed. 3 POW. Flying times : night 1.25.

Date discrepancy is a real mystery ?? Can't make that one out, partic as Warnes's Squadron history account says it was the 16th too !
RO.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 28th March 2007, 01:19
Oxby R's Avatar
Oxby R Oxby R is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 95
Oxby R is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Although the book on LG 1 certainly labels it as L1+RK, looking closely at the letters to the right of the Balken Cross, I am inclined to see that 4th letter as an ‘H' rather than a ‘K.'

I agree with you on this.

The narrative in Taghon, Vol. 2, p. 166, notes that the a/c of Ofw. Isachsen was shot down by your dad and F/O Shipard, but, the date is shown as 08.01.1943, not 16/17.01.43. And, as I noted in my 1st reply, the He 111 you inquired about was also shot down on 9.1.43.

Why the date is shown in your source as the 8th Jan is a mystery. I've got the 16th in both Oxby snrs logbook, and Sqdn history. Puzzled by that one. I thought the He111 was the e/a involved in the collision with Peters/Halliday's Beau - both a/c ultimately crashing into the sea. But that can't be correct. The collision was apparently the same night, the 16th Jan, and the He111 was shot down on the 9th. Also, Warne says the e/a was a Ju 88, not a Heinkel. Hmmm.

"Eventually came in from dead astern and open fire at range of 100 yards with a 4 sec burst. E/A immediately caught fire in both engines and fuselage and went down vertically. No return fire experienced – own aircraft struck by pieces from E/A but no damage done. E/A identified as Ju88. Claim one Ju88 destroyed." (From your Dad's narrative)

But, Ofw. Isachsen says he was hit only in the left engine, and was able to maintain control over the a/c on single engine power. Being over the water, the crew had to decide whether to fly north or south. They decided to fly south to Africa, and after passing the coast began looking for somewhere to land. As it turned out they landed in a mine-field, but all survived. And, a short time later became PoWs.

Judging from the photo, I'd say the damage to Ofw. Isachsen's a/c looks pretty superficial. I'm inclined to think his account is probably more reliable than the combat report - he was flying the a/c after all - and he would have had nothing to prove. It could well be Oxby snr/Shipard were mistaken, having seen the a/c perhaps only briefly going down, and at night. Who knows, it must have been diffiuclt not to imagine that you saw both engines smoking, and with the thing losing altitude so rapidly - when in reality, the e/a is simply trying to avoid further punishment ?

I think that, indeed, your father's crew did score its victory on the 16/17th and shot down either the Ju 88 of Lt. Werner Schmitz, L1+FN, #142 319, which crashed into the sea, with no survivors (which would seem to agree with your father's narrative of the a/c diving vertically); or the Ju 88 of Ogefr. Scheda, L1+EN, #142 305, from which the crew was able to parachute and be taken prisoner.

Hmmm. Neither of these options seem right to me. The logbook mentions 3 POWs, (which ok, could have come from L1+EN I guess) but how do we explain the Ju 88 photo in the desert ? It don't look a whole lot like L1+EN to me.. and remember Isachen's machine had cable cutting gear, and heavy cannon for shipping strikes. And finally, those photo(s) were taken by Shipard - and they do look more like L1+RH to me.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 28th March 2007, 02:14
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 831
George Hopp
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Ofw. Isachsen simply stated he was sick -- "Ich war krank und hatte drei Tage Flugverbot."

I have a feeling you are confusing Isachsen (8th) and Schmitz (16th). As I said earlier, Isachsen and his crew all survived the forced landing without major injury. Scheda and his crew were able to parachute to safety, but their a/c crashed. Schmitz and his crew were unable to parachute to safety, so their a/c is probably the one your dad's a/c hit which "went down vertically."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 29th March 2007, 13:02
Oxby R's Avatar
Oxby R Oxby R is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 95
Oxby R is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Geez ! It certainly gives one food for thought. George, I'm grateful for the information, and I will certainly be including its content as a speculative discussion in the book. Even if there remain some questions in my mind - it'll at least leave some research questions unanswered for those people interested enough, and better equipped than myself - to unearth the facts surrounding Oxby snr's darkest deeds. (!!) Many thanks, once again.

Kind regards, Richard.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12th July 2018, 19:10
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,406
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Richard Oxby,

Any news about the biography of your late father, S/L Oxby (senior)?? It has been quite a long time (11 years). I do wish fervently that this book will arise and that we will be able to read very soon.

Adriano B.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12th July 2018, 19:29
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 3,968
Nick Beale is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 losses over Tobruk 16th Jan 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner View Post
Richard Oxby,

Any news about the biography of your late father, S/L Oxby (senior)?? It has been quite a long time (11 years). I do wish fervently that this book will arise and that we will be able to read very soon.

Adriano B.
I edited the manuscript for Richard Oxby and returned it but I've heard no more from him since October 2015, sad to say.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
JG 2 losses - 16th August 1943 Smithy Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 29th August 2005 01:10
Soviet air force losses 1941-1945 Six Nifty .50s Allied and Soviet Air Forces 12 15th May 2005 18:57
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 05:03
Losses of III/JG2 January 1943 to October 1943 . infos needs heinz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 12th February 2005 19:56
Unclaimed Ju88 losses in the Battle of Britain Larry Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 8th January 2005 18:38


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net