Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 5th March 2012, 13:28
Tomas Brezina Tomas Brezina is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 50
Tomas Brezina is on a distinguished road
II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Does anyone have info on the losses of II./JG 51 on 28-Nov-42? They should be four overall.
Thanks in advance,

T.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 5th March 2012, 13:58
Ota Jirovec Ota Jirovec is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 231
Ota Jirovec
Re: II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Hello Tomas,

the following losses were suffered by II./JG 51 on 28 November 1942 according to Jagdfliegerverbände der deutschen Luftwaffe, volume 8/II, by Prien et al.:

4./JG 51, Lt. Hans Adam, WIA, Luftkampf 14 Spitfire, Raum Bizerta, Bf 109 G-2 trop 13975, 100 %

5./JG 51, N.N., no, Luftkampf, Notlandung nördlich Pont-du-Fahs, Bf 109 G-2 trop 10703 schwarze 8, 70 %

5./JG 51, Fw. Karl-Ludwig Zeddies, WIA, Luftkampf 14 Spitfire, Raum Bizerta, Bf 109 G-2 trop 13999, 100 %

II./JG 51, N.N. no, Motorschaden, Notlandung südlich Mateur, Bf 109 G-2 trop 13965, 30 %

Hope this helps,

Ota
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 5th March 2012, 16:48
Tomas Brezina Tomas Brezina is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 50
Tomas Brezina is on a distinguished road
Re: II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Thanks for your help, Ota.

T.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 5th March 2012, 18:31
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,885
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

This is all that "Fighter of Tunisia" by Shores and co had for actions this day involving Axis fighters:

Aerial activity was again plentiful; on 152 Squadron’s first sortie by eight aircraft at 1115, Sgt. Crint was shot down in flames, Sgt. Roberts claiming to have damaged the Bf 109 that got him; FO Walker was also hit by a Bf 109, being badly wounded but also claiming to have damaged his attacker. Both aircraft may have been the victims of Oblt. Rammelt of II/JG 51, who claimed two Spitfires at about 1215.

81 Squadron flew a morning sweep, led by Wg.Cdr. Hugo and accompanied by four American Spitfires of the 2nd. Fighter Squadron on their first mission. During this sweep Wg.Cdr. Hugo claimed one Bf 109 destroyed and a second was claimed shared by Sqn.Ldr. Berry and FO Rigby.

At midday eight Ju 88s bombed the airfield at Bone, destroying two Hurricanes on the ground and killing three airmen, but two 81 Squadron Spitfires intercepted, one bomber being shot down by Sgt. Moston and one by F/Sgt. Husband. 15 Mc 202s escorted one raid by Ju 88s on Bone airfield – possibly this one – losing one Macchi in the course of the mission.

At 1440 a composite formation of 11 Spitfires from 81 and 242 Sqn, led by Gp Capt Appleton and Sqn Ldr Berry, swept the Tebourda area, 15 Bf 109s being seen; Fl.Lt. Walker shot down one and damaged a second, Sgt. Moston claimed a probable and a damaged, and three more were claimed damaged, one by a 242 Squadron pilot.

During the day Fw. Karl-Ludwig Zeddies of II/JG 51 was shot down and wounded by Spitfires, and Lt. Hans Adam was also wounded, but managed to land back at Bizerta.

The 97th. Bomb Group, now joined by aircraft of the newly-arrived 301st. Bomb Group, put up between them 37 B-17s for a raid on Bizerta. The 1st Fighter Group P-38s were muddied-in at Nouvion, so no escort could be provided, and Axis fighters attacked in force, two B-17s being shot down. Obstlt von Maltzahn, Kommodore of JG 53, saw the bombers over the Lake of Bizerta in three waves and chased the last of these, attacking the outside right-hand Fortress. After his initial attack two engines stopped, and following a second, smoke began to trail from the aircraft, and it dropped down from 18000 to 12000 feet, one crewman being seen to bale out. Von Maltzahn kept up the attack and the gunners stayed at their posts returning his fire right to the end. After the battle had raged for a full quarter of an hour, the massive bomber finally crashed north-west of Medjez el Bab. The other B-17 probably fell to Fw. Hafner of II/JG 51, who claimed a bomber and a fighter on this date. Ofw. Walter Recker of 4/JG 53 was scrambled from Bizerta during the raid, and was wounded by bursting bombs; the B-17 gunners claimed to have shot down ten of the attacking fighters — later experience of the validity of such claims indicates that they were probably grossly in excess of true results.

Further south the 48th. Fighter Squadron of the 14th Fighter Group provided a reconnaissance over Gabes and Medenine. The pilots intercepted two Ju 88s, and both were claimed shot down by Lts V. H. Smith and Eubank. Eight 48th and 49th FS machines also set off on a sweep over the airfield at Bizerta, but two turned back early due to fuel feed trouble. The rest went in low to strafe the target, but as they passed over a hill near the Lake of Bizerta they suddenly saw before them a tight formation of Ju 52s flying about 30 feet above the lake. The leading pilots opened fire at one, Lt Ethell claiming four and Lt Watson one for the 48th, and Lt Redomnd E Evans one for the 49th. “It was like flushing a covey of quail ; they tried to scatter, but we were on top of them." reported Ervin Ethell. Almost at once however, a large formation of Bf 109s attacked, and the Americans were hard-pressed to escape, two pilots, Lt. Skinner of the 48th. and Lt. James E. Butler of the 49th. both being shot down, probably by Lt. Seeger and Ofw. Litjens of II/JG 53, who each claimed a P-38 during the day. Lt. Ethell saw two Bf 109s on the tail of one of the missing P-38s, and got a three second burst into one, this fighter disappearing behind a hill trailing smoke as the stricken Lightning went down; Ethell was credited with this one as a damaged.

A further mission by the 48th. Squadron occurred when 12 P-38s escorted 12 DB-7S of the 15th. Bomb Squadron to Bizerta again; the formation was attacked for ten minutes by ten Bf 109s, two P-38s being badly damaged.

So total for the day is 3 Bf 109s claimed shot down, 1 probable and 8 damaged by Allied fighters (mostly Spitfires) and 10 shot down by US gunners, against 3 Bf 109 of JG 51 shot down/DBR in air combat and one Mc 202 lost.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 7th March 2012, 15:04
Tomas Brezina Tomas Brezina is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 50
Tomas Brezina is on a distinguished road
Re: II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Laurent, thanks for this further info.

T.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 9th March 2012, 03:58
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,156
Leo Etgen is on a distinguished road
II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Hi guys

Many thanks to Rizzotti for the interesting account of the aerial activity that occurred that day. I did notice that Prien has listed Rammelt claiming his two victims at 15:35 and 15:42 (his 16th and 17th victories) and Hafner recording only one claim this being a Stirling (his 67th victory). Furthermore, he does not have Maltzahn claiming any victory that day. Could it be that the claims microfilms were unavailable to the authors of Fighters Over Tunisia at the time of publication?

Horrido!

Leo
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 9th March 2012, 07:49
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,885
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Hello Leo

As far as I know, you're right, when Mr Shores and co wrote their series of books about the Med air war (Fighters over the Desert, Fighters over Tunisia, the both Malta books and the Greece/Yugoslavia/Creete book), the claims microfilms later used by Tony Wood were not available to them. They used the unit histories compiled by Jochen Prien at the time, built from other sources and that the recent Prien books have heavily corrected for claims using sources that have become available in the interval.

Best regards
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11th March 2012, 17:35
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg / Germany
Posts: 556
Jochen Prien is on a distinguished road
Re: II./JG 51 losses 28-Nov-42 in Tunis?

Dear Laurent,

too much honour for me - Hans Ring and Christopher Shores did not have any of my unit histories at their disposal when they published Fighters over the Desert in 1969 and Fighters over Tunisia in 1975 whereas the first volume of my JG 53 history appeared only in 1989. Neither Ring / Shores nor me had any knowledge of the claims microfilms held by tha B.A. back then, the first parts of these becoming available just in time to be partly exploited for JG 53 Vol. 3. So Hans Ring and Chris Shores did not have to draw on my works as they didn't even exist back then but quite to the contrary Hans Ring helped me a great deal when I worked on JG 53.

I have made it very clear in each of the JFV series volumes that the older claims lists were based on the very limited source material at hand in the late eighties and that for both JG 53 and JG 77 the lists needed a very thorough work-over which is still in the process as the JFV series continues.

Kind regards

Jochen Prien
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Claims and losses JG51 AreKal Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 24th July 2011 07:56
Korea- November 1950 Daniel Nole Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 4 13th April 2011 17:06
B-17 loss to night fighter BartC17 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 14th January 2011 13:23
I./KG 51 losses on 28 April 1942 Laurent Rizzotti Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 29th April 2009 22:42
Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace? Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 25th August 2008 03:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net