Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Cannot remember exactly where I acquired the Oskar-Heinz from, but likely from the mikrofilms, I certainly remember that Gustav Siegried Rodel's full name came up that way. Many, many of these aces are usually known by different forenames, and at least one changed his surname......which baffled me for a while.

Regarding the codes:-

w.b is wirksamer beschuss, difficult to translate as there is no English equivalent but "effective shot" is about right.

v.n.e-a.s.m is vernichung nicht erwiesen or "destruction of aircraft not proven".

e.v is endgultige vernichtunf or "final destruction of a damaged aircraft"

o.z is ohne zeugen or "without a witness"

a.s.m is abschussbericht mangelhalf or "incomplete "kill" report, incomplete report of shooting down an aircraft".

With Bär:-

13th June 1942 a o.z
11th October 1942 a Spitfire w.b
13th March 1943 a P-40 w.b
23rd March 1943 a P-38 w.b
25th February 1944 a B-17 e.v
25th February 1944 a B-17 v.n.e-a.s.m(on microfilm his 181st confirmed)
29th April 1944 a B-24 a.s.m(on microfilm his 190th confirmed)
29th April 1944 a P-51 a.s.m(on microfilm his 191st confirmed)

Why some claims reports were incomplete(a.s.m) I don't know for sure, but Wilhelm Batz had several flying for Stab.II./JG 52, these generally were without a witness, but had witnesses from ground units, other were never confirmed and just recorded in his flugbuch as o.z, which in my opinion means that he flew alone quite regularly with the stab, which often would be very few aircraft flying together anyway. I would be inclined to say that Batz's claims by his pattern of claiming were dodgy, however with the stab at least there is absolutely no reason for a ground unit to witness his claims unless it was honest. On 20th October 1943 whilst with 5./JG 52 Batz even has two o.z-a.s.m that appear on the mikrofilms(his 31st-32nd confirmed).

Regards

Johannes

[Andrei Demjanko]

Originally Posted by Johannes

a.s.m is abschussbericht mangelhalf or "incomplete "kill" report, incomplete report of shooting down an aircraft".

ASM = Anerkennung später moglich (confirmation possible later).

[knusel]

Good afternoon,

what is the story behind Heinrich Ehrler's P-51 HSS on 31Mar45 ?
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/ehrler.html

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Have never heard of H.S.S in use for fighters.

I have Bär's flugbuch, I'll check if he gives any codes for his claims.

Regards

Johannes

[Johannes]

Hi Andrei

Yours makes perfect sense as A.S.M claims are recorded on the mikrofilms. O.Z only for recon claims, guess there would never be a witness, but cameras may have helped.

Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good evening Johannes,

you have Bär's Flugbuch ? Cool !
Does it reveal what final score he believed to have achieved ?

Kind regards,

Michael

[Stig Jarlevik]

Gentlemen

While the discussion is very interesting, we have a problem here.

Nothing what has been said lately has any relevance to the heading. May I suggest that Michael start up some separate headings, perhaps such as "German claims system" and "Heinz Bär"?

Perhaps our Moderator can help to "push over" the relevant parts??

Cheers
Stig

PS: From a personal point I was very interested to read the various short forms depicting "incomplete claims". Can I ask when they began to be used? At least I have been led to believe the Germans did not have anything corresponding to damaged and probables in the Allied system, but here we can clearly see they actually did, even if such claims never made it into the pilots total.
Except for the HSS and final claim of a four-engined bomber I still believe the Germans never use shared claims. Is that still correct?

[knusel]

Good morning Stig,

I think the Germans almost never credited shared kills other than HSS/e.V. in WW2. One exceptions seems to be Dieter Meister:
http://luftwaffe.cz/meisterd.html

I wish you a good Monday,

Michael

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good morning Stig,

I think the Germans almost never credited shared kills other than HSS/e.V. in WW2. One exceptions seems to be Dieter Meister:
http://luftwaffe.cz/meisterd.html

I wish you a good Monday,

Michael

Michael

If you look closer in the list, these shared claims are not counted into the pilot's total. Usually, I was led to believe, the pilots involved themselves had to settle which one of them who should file for the claim. If they could not settle the matter, the claim was simply added to the unit's total and never to the individual.

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Stig

The term A.S.M was used from the start of the war, up until July 1942 the mikrofilms would list each Staffel's claims for the whole period, after July 1942 this became daily claims for all unit on the two fronts that included A.S.M claims, but a subsidiary microfilm using daily entries was used up until July 1942.
Could be that these A.S.M were dealt with by a different department to "clean" claims as at least JG 52 and JG 54's remain preserved collectively to each unit without any other non A.S.M or V.N.E claims, actually if anybody is interested they are available for purchase from Germany.
Regarding shared claims. there are a few(and only a few), all seem to be with JG 2 where two pilots sometimes shared the same claim details like aircraft type, altitude. time and most importantly the amerk nummer.

Regarding Bär and his own supposed total, in his flugbuch(copy) for the claim previously regarded are his 200th(by memory 22nd April 1944) is scribed "200" in a laurel leaf logo, no proof that this is his work as it is a copy, and somebody may have scribed this in, only to send somebody like myself a photocopied copy. Pilots varied in there flugbuch recording of there claims, I even have one where the pilots gives details of those he witnessed for others....and numbers them!

Kind Regards

Johannes