Question about a Radener "luftsieg"

[focusfocus]

Hello

I have a "facsimile",officially confirm (Dated 13/09/44):
"Der 7./J.G.26 wird der Abschuss eine Boeing Fortress II am 29/4/44,13.35 Uhr durch Oblt.Waldemar Radener IM ZUSAMMENWIRKEN MIT Schw.Flakabt.345 (l.u.2.Battr.) und Schw.Flakbt.654 (2.u.3.BBattr.) als (93.) Luftsieg der Staffel anerkannt.

The previous official confirmation as 87."luftsieg"(anerk.) of the 7/JG26 concerns the P-47 claimed by Radener on 27/4/44.

Between the 27/4 and 29/4,no other claims of the 7/JG26...So no official confirmation attributed bu the RLM.

a) Why,this lack of logical chronology:we should go from 87. to 88.(and no to 93.)whatever the time taken by the RLM to "formalize " the "claims"?....IT'S A NONSENCE.

b)Unless I am mistaken the "Luftsieg" was either one (Radener) or the other(Flak)....but both?

Certainly some things escape me!

Who can help me?

Thanks in advance
Michel

[lilsis]

hi,

we have at 29.04. Peter Crump , south of Reims a B-17 at. 13.30

just 5 min. before Rademer shot down a B-17

regards

[focusfocus]

Hi lilsis

Yes,but not confirmed!just probable,never filed?....Therefore no officiating by RLM.

PS
in response to your private message,NO I did not bought (1600€! too much for me!) cf my precedent post about Radener

michel

[Kapper]

Michel,

The meaning/purpose of the Anerk numbers created great waves on this forum many years ago thus many probably don’t want to re-open old wounds. However, I’ve been working on trying to unravel things over the year and I’ll try to answer your questions without creating a storm.

To answer your first question, the Anerk numbers are sequenced by the date of confirmation of award not by date of claim. Some claims are confirmed relatively quickly, some took years to be confirmed and many were never fully confirmed. Unfortunately, the claims files do not state the award date, only the claim date. The most common place I know to find the award dates are on the confirmation certificates issued to the pilots (top right hand corner of document). For example, recently on the web a number of award certificates for “H.G. von Fassong” were for sale.

Below is a short list by Anerk number of some of the confirmed claims for this pilot while in 10./JG 51.

Anerk - Claim date - time - Certificate award date
100 - 11.01.44 - 14.42 - 13.05.44
101 - 11.01.44 - 14.45 - 13.05.44
102 - 11.01.44 - 14.45 - 13.05.44
105 - 15.01.44 - 14.33 - 13.05.44
106 - 15.01.44 - 14.35 - 13.05.44
125 - 24.01.44 - 14.00 - 30.05.44
128 - 25.01.44 - 11.15 - 30.05.44
129 - 25.01.44 - 11.18 - 30.05.44
256 - 09.05.43 - 07.35 - 25.10.44
259 - 02.06.43 - 03.56 - 25.10.44
261 - 02.06.43 - 10.30 - 25.10.44
269 - 10.06.43 - 19.11 - 25.10.44
271 - 10.06.43 - 19.16 - 25.10.44
274 - 10.06.43 - 19.20 - 25.10.44

Note that the award certificates are not sequential by claim date but are sequential by award date. That is, the May/June 1943 were awarded after the January 1944 claims thus have higher Anerk numbers.

The second item to note is how the claim confirmations were awarded in batches. The May/Jun 1943 claims were all awarded on the same date and those claims awarded on that date are sequential to date/time of the claims. This sequential of date/time of claim in batches had made many believe that all Anerk numbers are sequential to date/time of claim but they are not they are sequential to the award date as shown here. It is much easier to see this with the Russian Front units claims due to the vast number of claims in the east, not so easy to see for units fighting in the west with the much smaller number of claims and it can be even more complicated – which leads to your next question.

I’ll call it a theory as it is much more difficult to prove. There has been a long held believe that with the German system there can only be one claimant i.e. no shared victories – To a large extent this is true but with a twist. This can be verified with data from Chris Goss’s book “Bloody Biscay” where Chris noted many shared victories. An example of this is the following using the Tony Woods data:

16.09.42 Hptm. Georg Esch 13./KG 40 Wellington  14 West / 9826: 300 m. 17.12 Film C. 2035/II Anerk: Nr. 24
16.09.42 Ltn. Dieter Meister: (1/4 Esch) 13./KG 40 shared  14 West / 9826 Bay of Biscay 17.12 Reference: CG MSS f. 203
16.09.42 Uffz. Hans Harms: (1/4 Esch) 13./KG 40 ahared  14 West / 9826 Bay of Biscay 17.12 Reference: CG MSS f. 203
16.09.42 Uffz. Werner Steurich: (1/4 Esch) 13./KG 40 shared  14 West / 9826 Bay of Biscay 17.12 Reference: CG MSS f. 203

Goss has this claim shared by 4 pilots, yet in the claim files only 1 is listed with an Anerk (Hptm Esch) which is in line with the German system. This is the same for all the shared claims listed in “Bloody Biscay”. Kurt Necessany’s Log book confirmed many of the claims Chris stated he shared but in his log book if he wasn’t awarded the claim then the claims were mentioned as claim participation but not listed in the Microfilms.

The twist comes with the Heavy Bomber formations and the advent of the shooting Heavy Bombers “out of formation” (HSS) and then “final destruction” (e.V.) Within the claim files there are a number of claims that have been identified as HSS and e.V. with the same Anerk number, for example;

24.04.44 Ltn. Joachim Ahlert: 3 VFS 1./JG 27 B-17 HSS  CC-7/DC-2: 7.000 m. [5 km. W. München] 13.39 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.169
24.04.44 Ltn. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert: e.V. VFS 1./JG 27 B-17 e.V.  CC-8/DC-2: 7.000 m. [5 km. SW München] 13.39 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.169

01.10.43 Fw. Otto Haas: 2 1./JG 27 B-24 HSS  20 km. S. Wiener Neustadt: 5.000 m. 13.05 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.170
01.10.43 Fw. Gustav Sturm: 1./JG 27 B-24 e.V.  S.S.W. Wiener Neustadt: 5.500 m. 13.05 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.170

12.05.44 Ltn. Horst Grimm: 4 1./JG 27 B-17 HSS  vor Frankfurt-Main: 7.000 m. 12.45 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.179
12.05.44 St.Fw. Heinz Kuschel: e.V. 1./JG 27 B-17 e.V.  20 km. S.E. Langendiebach: 7.000 m. 12.47 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.179

Note that these are from the same Staffel. This is against the one award system as 2 are listed in the files but it is in line with one award in the Staffel numbering. I also note in the claims files that there are many HSS claims but very few e.v. claims – I believe that the HSS claim has been confirmed but does not get an Anerk number until a matching e.v. is found for that claim then one anerk number is assigned to the unit for the destruction of one aircraft. So, 2 pilots are recognised but only one victory is recognised in the staffel list. This is also why I believe the claims against the heavy bomber losses are grossly overclaimed – many claims for shot out of formation that were confirmed as such but few were matched to final destruction and percentage would have made it back to friendly territory.

So what happens when the pilots are from different units? Reconstructing the Anerk lists from known Anerk numbers is a difficult task as the claims files come from several sources of which the one with the Anerk numbers are either form a hand written list on microfilm where numbers can be easily misidentified or from a staffel list of claims without detail that need to be cross referenced with other sources – the remaining sources do not list the Anerk number thus many known confirmed claims don’t have Anerk numbers. While reconstructing the lists, there are still several Anerk numbers that do not fit in with the Staffel numbering, particularly with Heavy Bomber claims. This is where my theory kicks in, I believe that when an e.V. claim is matched to a HSS claim from another unit – only one anerk number is awarded and it’s to the unit of the claimant of the e.V. while the HSS claimant from the other unit is still recognised but the Anerk number is for the e.V. claimant unit. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find a conclusive example, with most of the claims from different units that I have been able to find are generally missing the Anerk number or do not quite fit with either unit. Thus, why I still call this a theory.

So, what about Flak – many heavy bombers were shot out of formation by flak and finished off by fighters and I believe this is the case with your query. I believe the flak units were probably responsible for shooting the aircraft out of formation and Radener was credited with finishing it off thus credited with the Anerk for 7./JG26.

With all the issues above, this is what makes reconstructing the Staffel list for units fighting in the west so darn difficult and much more data is required before a satisfactory list can be assembled. So, if anyone has the claim award certificates that they can send me copies -it would be greatly appreciated as I can then continue improving the lists.

After saying all that, with respect to your list between anerk 87 and anerk 93, I have the following – the blue is my additions & corrections on what I believe are misidentified numbers.

27.04.44 Oblt. Waldemar Radener: 18 7./JG 26 P-47  S.W. Reims: 5.000-500 m. 17.42 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 87
14.10.43 Hptm. Hans Naumann: 26 7./JG 26 B-17  Raum Maastricht: 7.500 m. 13.30 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. 88
22.02.44 Uffz. Rudolf Georgi: 3 7./JG 26 B-17 HSS  Selm 8 km. N. Lünen: 7500m. [Ruhr](154) 13.25 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 80 89
02.03.44 Ofw. Wilhelm Mayer: 15 7./JG 26 B-17  PD-9: 1.500 m. [Crécy-en-Ponthieu] 13.30 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 98 90
08.03.44 Fw. Gerhard Vogt: 21 7./JG 26 B-17  GC-2: 7.500 m. (160) 13.33 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. 91
12.04.44 Ltn. Waldemar Radener: 16 7./JG 26 B-24 HSS  OM-PM: 5.000 m [Sprimont-Stavelot] 13.10 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 92
29.04.44 Oblt. Waldemar Radener: 19 7./JG 26 B-17  5 km. S.E. Roubaix: no height 13.35 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr. 93

If you can find the claim certificate to get the award dates you will probably find that claims 88 - 93 were awarded on the same date in one batch while claim 87 was awarded with an earlier batch.
Regards

Craig…

[focusfocus]

Hi Craig

Thank you for your explanations,I see a little clearer!

Best Regards

Michel