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  #1  
Old 7th December 2019, 19:06
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Hello ALL

According to C.Shores(Typhoon/Tempest story)

A Typhoon (609°Sqd.,F/O Charles Rowland) WOULD HAVE BEEN shot down by Lt.Heckmann (JG1)
I have not found any claims today by Heckmann,nor a Typhoon in the list of Jagdkorps/L.fl.3.

Others mystery that day:
4 P-47 claimed around 12h.00(including 3 by Rodel and officially approuved by the RLM)....P-47 unknowns.

1 Mustang of 2°Sqd (RAF) shot down by Fw.190 north of Paris early morning according his pilot (Flt.Lt Tan Kay Hai,a Chinese pilot in the RAF!)....no german claim found.

One of YOU KNOWS MORE?

thanks in advance
michel
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Old 7th December 2019, 20:20
KM1957 KM1957 is offline
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Only two Ninth Air Force P-47's were lost this date due to FW 190's. Both were 514 Fighter Squadron, 406 Fighter Group. Lt. Levitt C. Beck went down near Havelu (eventually captured and died as a POW) and Lt. Edward R. Gaudet was lost south of Dreux (KIA). No Eighth Air Force P-47's were lost this day.
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Old 7th December 2019, 22:02
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Levitt C. Beck Jr. wrote a book about his experiences. It is titled "Fighter Pilot" and was published posthumously in 1946. Found a copy at a swap meet, torn DJ.
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Old 7th December 2019, 23:06
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

P-47 of 406°FG correspond to the claims of I/JG2 (around 8h.00)
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:03
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Hello ALL
According to C.Shores(Typhoon/Tempest story)
A Typhoon (609°Sqd.,F/O Charles Rowland) WOULD HAVE BEEN shot down by Lt.Heckmann (JG1)
I have not found any claims today by Heckmann,nor a Typhoon in the list of Jagdkorps/L.fl.3.
michel
Michel

Shores/Thomas use the word possibly (not would have!) and most likely used what was available to them back then during the late 1980s.
Looking in Prien/Rodeike's Vol 2 of their JG 1/JG 11 book, we can find a Fw Heckman claiming a Typhoon on the 27th (not 29th) at 17.30H in the Caen area. This is no doubt Günther Heckman, who according to Johannes Mathews was in fact an Obfw at the time, and still in 7./JG 51 when making his claim. P/R says it was his 15th claim while M is more modest and says it was his 13th claim. Heckman later joined 7./JG 1 in 1944

Cheers
Stig
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:34
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

I have this:
The final day of operations for June 1944 came on the 29th. Seven Typhoons took off to attack a railway junction at Ste Maske Couches which they did successfully. However, what was described as confusion ensued on the return flight and pilots had to land at B.4 (Bény-sur-Mer) and B.6 (Coulombs) to refuel. It was not until they had all arrived back at Hurn that it was realised that Fg Off Charles Rowland was missing. It is believed that he was a victim of Flak and crashed near Mézidon and five days later, the Squadron was informed that the remains of his aircraft had been found and that he had been killed and his body had been buried at Ste Aubin. It was a sad ending to June 1944 for the Squadron.
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Old 8th December 2019, 13:44
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

I had understood the NUANCE between possibility and WOULD HAVE BEEN.

C.Shores "mixed brushes" between june 27 and 29.
"Problem" solved,even if the 27 Heckmann claim is subject to interrogation (Caen for Heckmann and Laval for C.Shores (609°sqd F/O R.Holmes:sdb by Fw 190)

Remain the 3 P-47 approuved!! to Rodel (95.96.97.),knowing that no allied aircraft crashed in the region of Evreux/Louvier according himself.

Probably a "trick of magic"!....I'm kidding!
Michel
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Old 10th December 2019, 18:37
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

What I have on Holmes:


On June 27, 1944, the new Commanding Officer Sqn Ldr Manu Geerts led six aircraft on an armed recce in the Le Mans/Laval area. One aircraft suffered engine failure on take-off but managed to land safely and the remainder went on to attack Parennes railway station (east of Laval) but when attacking another target at Sillé on the way back from Parennes, they were bounced by three Fw 190s. Flt Eric Roberts jettisoned his rockets but could not get his tanks away so quickly turned for home. Flt Sgt Roland Ashworth got onto the tail of one only to have another two on his tail so he dived for the coast at low-level. However, despite 'Spud' Holmes being the first to spot the Fw 190s when he was about a mile behind the rest of the Squadron, nothing more was heard from him and no aircraft was seen to crash. It is believed that he had become the seventh air combat victory for Oblt Georg Hiebl of 1./JG 11and Holmes was killed when his Typhoon crashed near Alençon. Hiebl was the only German pilot to claim an Allied aircraft at the time Holmes was shot down and in the approximate location
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Old 10th December 2019, 23:19
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Re: help!! about claims on 29/06/44 (Normandy)

Hi Chris

I have a different idea about the winner of Holmes.
According to the Jagdkorps/Lfl.3,Hiebl has claimed a P-47 ,05 ost UT-UU,what's corresponds to Caen/Carpiquet. and not Alençon.
The distance Carpiquet/Alençon is 89 km:too far.....no "logic" that Hiebl mentions in his report:Carpiquet if the fight took place toward Alençon

On the other hand,his colleague of Staffel,Fw.Norbert Schucking claimed a P-47 (misidentification as Hiebl,it's likely) 04 ost BA (10 km N Alençon).
The Typhoon of Holmes crashed Sémallé (8 km N Alençon) place of his temporary burial....so ? Schucking winner? fort probable.

The P-47 claimed by Hiebl might be the Typhoon of 438°Sqd(F/Lt Park) shot down SO Caen by Flak ? ....not so sure by Flak!.....Concordant similarities!

Well, hours are different,but hours!
When we see the errors of identifications in general...so hours!
Michel
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