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  #21  
Old 14th June 2018, 20:57
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Ha, ha Gabor

I should have made a list of the serial numbers vs the c/n.
Thanks for setting the situation right.

Good to have friends doing the hard work. I should have done it myself really....

Thanks again
Cheers
Stig
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  #22  
Old 14th June 2018, 21:06
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Dear Gabor and all, sorry for the delay in answering back.

Firstly thank you for sharing the pictures of what possibly is the spinner of the LAGG 5FN from Suhorukhov. Nice finding and interesting information about the red spinner, although Lipfert did mention a red trailing painting from the cockpit backwards (from memory), on his memories…

I was deeply touched and impressed by the amazing story of Karakozov. The picture of the son visiting the rest place of his father is poignant and very emotive. Thank you for sharing that with us. The picture speaks for itself…I lost my greatest friend and wing-man, my father, some 14 years ago…I can only guess what Mr. Karakozov passed through all those years…

There is no money in the world that can pay back the happiness you gave this son to finally met his late father (or finding the rest place of his father and crew). I can only imagine what he passed through and all those years, to finally (and thanks to the internet) finding the full story…Congratulations to all the Hungarian Team of Researchers that made that possible…really…and thank you for sharing that with us. I wish that soon a book with all those stories of air combats in your country, Hungary, will arose one day, in English language, so many around will be able to read too.
And…his unselfish act of taking some sand of this place (accident local) to give to the son of one of his father’s crewmembers, it is something!

Some years ago I got in touch with Mrs. Sarah V. Mosher (member of this Forum too), who was writing about the ex-fiancé of his late mother, a Canadian named Jimmy Muir, from Trois Rivičres which was shot down after and near Arnhem in September 1944.

She gave me some information about the story, although I never read her book personally….another case of love that war broke or stopped. I remember her informing that her mother passed some part of 1946 or 1947 trying to find the rest place of her fiancé….finally finding. Another amazing story.

Congratulations and thanks for sharing all that with us. There are many persons doing great stuff to preserve History and the deeds and stories that seems were forgot by the new generations. Like I said before, the language is very difficult barrier…not every published work in German (JG 27, KG 6, KG 27, etc.) is translated to English and a very very small parcel of what Is published in Hungary and Russia is also translated to English language. Anyway, one tends to preserve one’s History by writing in our mother language, isn’t it?

Are you the Gabor of the DH-2 project or that one that lives in Canada? I do have a great friend named Gabor in Hungary…anyway…Cheerio Gabor and keep going.

Most humble and grateful,
Adriano S. Baumgartner

Sorry this is the third time I do try to answer you back, but internet keep falling here...the first answer was more complete than this one...
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  #23  
Old 14th June 2018, 23:16
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Adriano, I tried to send a PM, but was rejected due to space limitation, so please make a little more space in your mailbox. Here are a few more pics (of the many) on Gv.Capt. Armen Artemovich Karakozov - with his B-25C-15-NA Mitchell (42-32474, Red '12'), and his son's visit as he takes some soil from his father's crash site in the forest were a few more aluminum pieces were found, and in discussion with our team, reviewing the recovered parts of the plane.

Gabor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 14 GvAP DD Karakozov+ (1).jpg (28.7 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 14 GvAP DD Karakozov+ (2).jpg (109.0 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Crash site.JPG (173.6 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Review.JPG (75.2 KB, 19 views)
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  #24  
Old 15th June 2018, 13:05
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Few more details of Karakozov's B-25C Mitchell. Detail of soviet 14 GvAP DD mission plan (TsAMO archives) for the night of August 09/10, 1944 Yugoslav supply-drop mission with the 7 assigned B-25s and their crews, including the 2 planes, lost to German night fighter(s): Karakozov's 42-32474, red '12' and Pchelov's 43-3507, red '4'. Plane No.22 has been cancelled, so finally only 6 flew the mission to Yugoslavia that night. Another pic shows '474' on the wreck at Nagymányok and another one shows Hungarian soldiers removing the live ammo from the wrecks in -, and beside the Nagymányok forest.

Gabor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 474.jpg (98.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Karakozov ammo.jpg (64.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Mission plan.JPG (118.0 KB, 30 views)
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  #25  
Old 16th June 2018, 03:14
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Gabor,

Fantastic imagery librarianship and archival material....

...as always
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  #26  
Old 17th June 2018, 14:51
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

The loss entry of the two 14 GvAP DD B-25 Mitchells and their crews that failed to return in the morning of August 10, 1944 from the night mission over Samarica, Yugoslavia. (TsAMO) Both planes (42-32474, red '12' and 43-3507, red '4') were lost to Fw. Eckart Ulmer (8./NJG.6) at Nagymányok and Akasztó, Hungary. The 6 B-25s flying the mission were:

B-25D, S/N: 43-3507, red '4' - Pchelov (KIA) at Akasztó, dropped supply-containers: №2644, 2624, 2627, 2655, 3189, 3196, 2674, 2645.
B-25D? S/N: 42-..362, red '5' - Smirnov (42-87362?), dropped supply-containers: №2524, 2522, 2562, 2556, 2521, 2529, 2551, 2604.
B-25D? S/N: 42-..369, red '7' - Konstantinov (42-87369?), dropped supply-containers: №2534, 2547, 2538, 2543, 93, 54, 55, 63, 68.
B-25C, S/N: 42-32474, red '12' - Karakozov (KIA) at Nagymányok, dropped supply-containers: №2527, 2526, 2553, 2540, 2525, 2567, 2575, 2619.
B-25D, S/N: 42-87394, red '14' - Vasin, dropped supply-containers: №1371, 1370, 1381, 1187, 0788, 1369, 1146, 1165.
B-25D, S/N: 42-87588, red '25' - Kuprienko, dropped supply-containers: №1411, 1188, 1145, 1382, 1374, 1375, 1156, 1163.

(Based on the container No.s the soviet HQ. could check and verify each crew if they really dropped their cargo successfully to the partisans after their radio message. They also knew what stuff the partisans received and what supply should be re-sent during the next mission(s).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 14 GvAP DD losses.jpg (99.4 KB, 21 views)

Last edited by HGabor; 17th June 2018 at 15:49.
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  #27  
Old 19th June 2018, 15:28
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Compared the survivor planes of the August 9/10, 1944 Samarica, Yugoslavia mission to the 14 GvAP DD (later 14 GvBAP) AC list on December 11, 1944:

Red '7', ....369 (Arefyev) was still the same
Red '14', ....394 (Vasin) was still the same
Red '5', was ....392 (Belyakov), or just a typo instead of 362?
Red '25', 42-87588 (Kuprienko) is weird, as on December 11, 1944 it was ....533 (or just typo of 588?), while 42-87588 was still in service and belly landed at Tököl airfield, Hungary on March 24, 1945 with the Gusev crew.
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  #28  
Old 20th June 2018, 17:54
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Hello GABOR, sorry about the PM Box being full....I deleted some old messages and now it is all right.

You can contact me also at: baumgartner_asv@yahoo.com.br

The information you added is really amazing; I mean all the cross-checking the 14 GvAP documents and loss list, etc.

May I ask one question for curiosity, when you do mention:
Based on the container No.s the soviet HQ. could check and verify each crew if they really dropped their cargo successfully to the partisans after their radio message. They also knew what stuff the partisans received and what supply should be re-sent during the next mission(s).

Is there recorded on the archives, any kind of reprimand or hierarchical order/penality to the crews who brought back their containers? I mean, if a crew did not manage to drop the supplies and containers on two consecutive missions or on alternate missions, were they posted away? Were they reprimanded officially? I remember some 138 and 161 Squadrons missions that were not successful and the crew returned days later or next night...and there were several unsuccessful missions recorded by the same crew on days, then a good one. I am trying to understand if the VVS did consider this natural (Navigation problems, enemy action that caused them to abort mission, etc.) or if this was a problem for a crew...

Am always learning here on the Fórum thanks to guys like you and the other "ACES".

Cheerio

Adriano B.
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  #29  
Old 20th June 2018, 19:26
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Adriano,

The list of container (cargo) numbers, loaded on each aircraft, flying a supply-drop mission was part of every mission-plan. Thus the soviet HQ could trace every container, based on the radio message of the partisans who collected them. If a plane was shot down early, or dropped the cargo somewhere else due to any reason, the HQ knew what supply should be re-sent during the next mission. Our research goal was to get information on the battles and plane losses in Hungary, including the soviet cargo planes to identify the crews, wrecks, etc.

From THIS perspective the soviet military policies of the unsuccessful missions, or mission sabotage by the crews (eg. dropping cargo too early to the Germans) and their consequences was completely irrelevant, so we did not research that. But because the mission plans contained the dropped container numbers, we know their assignment by every plane.
Cheers,

Gabor
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  #30  
Old 20th June 2018, 22:09
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

See cargo list of the 14 GvAP DD B-25 Mitchells on the August 9/10, 1944 mission over Yugoslavia. Other regiments of the 5 GvAD DD (22 GvAP DD, 337 AP DD) also dropped containers at different locations, their numbers are also recorded in the division's mission-plan.
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File Type: jpg Cargo list.JPG (88.3 KB, 21 views)
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