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  #11  
Old 19th June 2018, 11:23
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Good morning Gentlemen,

Mr Grabowski has published this marvellous Skalski biography
https://www.amazon.de/Skalski-Agains...5&sr=8-1-fkmr0
which can be considered definite.
Sadly, he smashes my hopes of finding confirmation for Christopher Shores's proposition that 2 of Skalski's probable claims during the Polish campaign were upgraded to confirmed kills postwar.
I wonder what the motivation of Mr Shores was.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #12  
Old 22nd June 2018, 15:59
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Its a good piece of work and long overdue but I wished it had been a bit heavier on detail of his relationships with other pilots. I expect there are few remaining survivors of the time who could have contributed any opinions on the man.

The claims in Poland are so confused that it's a question of where you stand on the individual as to how they are interpreted. Skalski seems to be unquestionably the highest scoring Polish ace of the war although my own take is that Horbaczewski runs him very close.
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  #13  
Old 22nd June 2018, 16:57
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

[quote=Skalski seems to be unquestionably the highest scoring Polish ace of the war although my own take is that Horbaczewski runs him very close.[/QUOTE]

I have Skalski, Urbanowicz, Gladych, Horbaczewski with 18.25, 18, 17 and 16.83 respectively, all based on Shores' work. Has there been any update on the latter 3 scores?
For Skalski, Shores states in AH2 that the revised total is 18+3sh, but only details 1sh in 1939. No mention of any on 8 Nov 1940. Perhaps this is an error and they were supposed to be included in the list to make up the 18+3? As for where they might have come from .......
Peter
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  #14  
Old 23rd June 2018, 17:25
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

I believe that Horbaczewski shaves it because his claims in 1944 all seem to be confirmable (even those on his last flight). Certainly within the criteria that for every 3 claimed at least one or two were genuine. As I alluded to earlier it'll be interesting what the Shores book states about his victories with 43 Squadron. It all revolves around the victories with the PFT and 43 Squadron. His claim accuracy does seem above average.

Skaski's and Urbanowicz's victories in 1940 have to be considered within the context of the Battle of Britain when overclaiming was very high, especially within 303 Squadron (a consequence of their aggessive attacking at close range and a form of "tunnel vision" when confronted by a Swastika with wings.

The victories in 1941 and 1942 of Skalski and Horbaczewski were very loosely verified. Urbanowicz's in China are difficult to verify because of the paucity of Japanese records.

What I would say is that all three had above average skill and aggression and even within the hyperbole offered by fighter pilots in general, they stand out as determined and brave "scrappers".

- by the way before I get lambasted for anti-Polish bias I should state that my wife is from piekary śląskie and my children are half Polish...and my University dissertation was on "Poland in the Silver Age" .... a roller-coaster of emotion with nasty rumours of Catherine the Great thrown in for good measure

regards

Keith
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  #15  
Old 23rd June 2018, 17:51
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Horbaczewski was getting very close to Skalski's tally in 1944. Skalski's victory markings on his Mustang an indication that he had just 17 kills by 1944 - none shared (and four probables). At the same time Horbaczewski had was not far behind with 12 kills. Nothing I have read about Skalski (or any other fighter pilot) indicates a modest approach to claiming, usually these are made by biographers. In which case Horbaczewski was officially just one half of a kill behind when he died - although arguably he had thirteen and a half kills because he never wrote a combat report after his last flight.

Parallels between Bishop and Mannock in WW1 spring to mind.

regards

Keith
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  #16  
Old 24th June 2018, 05:12
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Regarding Skalski, the date the photo was taken is important -
AH2 lists a total of 18.25, the list given earlier in this thread 17.92, and that at this site
http://www.aviationart.pl/signatures/92.html
is also 17.92. I guess one may have come from the other. The difference between them and AH2 is they add 2sh on 8 Nov 1940 and exclude 1 on 4 Apr 1943.
I have a photo of Skalski's Mustang III with 17 kill markings, date unknown, attached. Based on a total of 17.92, the likely possibility which gives 17 kills at the time he was in a Mustang is if the photo was taken after 24 June 1944, when he had 17 + 3sh, and he didn't show shared kills.
If he did show shared kills, then ....... it doesn't add up unless he only had 2sh and the photo was taken before his kills of 24 June 1944 were added.
ALTERNATIVELY, if AH2 total of 18+1sh is correct, it comes out neatly at 17 including shared kills if the photo was taken before 24 June 1944.
Is there more information to dispute these totals? So when was the photo taken??
Horbaczewski's photo was probably taken after 12 June but before 30 July 1944, during which time he had 12 kills. But kill marking #9 looks different - artist's 'error', photo quality??? Either way, as far as I can see on the available information, his total can only reach 16.5.
Finally, is there any more information on the Urbanowicz and Gladych totals other than AH2?
Check out the others at the website given above.
Peter
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File Type: jpg Skalski, Stanislaw Mustang III SS 17 kill markings.jpg (48.6 KB, 21 views)
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  #17  
Old 24th June 2018, 05:15
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Oops, Hobaczewski's photo .......
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  #18  
Old 24th June 2018, 05:34
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Oops again - a later pic of Horbaczewski's Mustang, presumably between 30 July and 18 August.
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File Type: jpg Horbaczewski, Eugeniusz Mustang III PKoG.jpg (122.1 KB, 18 views)

Last edited by PMoz99; 24th June 2018 at 06:30.
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  #19  
Old 24th June 2018, 12:06
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Good morning Peter,

"Entscheidende Luftschlachten des 2. Weltkriegs" in which Christopher Shores proposed a postwar upgrade of two of Skalski's probable Polish campaign kills to confirmed kills was published earlier (1988) than "ACES HIGH Vol2" (1999) from which you refer to a Skalski total of 18,25. That means that even Shores himself ceased suggesting that upgrade.
I'll say goodbye to a PZL P.11 score of 6,25 for Skalski. :-(

Cheers,

Michael
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  #20  
Old 24th June 2018, 14:23
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: Stanislaw, Skalski

Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel View Post
Good morning Peter,

"Entscheidende Luftschlachten des 2. Weltkriegs" in which Christopher Shores proposed a postwar upgrade of two of Skalski's probable Polish campaign kills to confirmed kills was published earlier (1988) than "ACES HIGH Vol2" (1999) from which you refer to a Skalski total of 18,25. That means that even Shores himself ceased suggesting that upgrade.
I'll say goodbye to a PZL P.11 score of 6,25 for Skalski. :-(

Cheers,

Michael
Hello,

For English readers, see:

Duel For The Sky:Ten Crucial Air Battles of World War II Vividly Recreated.
Shores,Christopher
New York: Doubleday & Co.,1985
pp.13-28 (Blitzkrieg on Poland - September 1939 [Sklaski item p.26]).

Col.
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