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Old 13th September 2018, 11:56
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Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

Knoll was killed on 21 February 1945 when his Me 262 crashed. The aircraft's marking is given in books as "Red 2" but what is the original source for that? It's not in the QMG 6. Abt. report, so is it from the NVM or somewhere else?
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Old 13th September 2018, 17:05
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

I don't know if it will help you,but a book on the losses of Me.262 quotes as used documents:

Namentliche Verlustmeldungen der Fliegenden Verbande de Luftwaffe.Wehrmachtsauskunftstelle(WASTt.)Berlin

Meldungen uber Flugzeugunfalle und Verluste bei den Fliegenden Verbanden,Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt

Documents Bundescharchiv-Kornelimunster

Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgraberfursorge

Another mystery about his death,"he would have been shot down" by two Mustangs.....but wich?no claims in the region of Landsberg am lech.

michel
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Old 13th September 2018, 18:49
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Another mystery about his death,"he would have been shot down" by two Mustangs.....but wich?no claims in the region of Landsberg am lech.

michel
My impression is that he crashed and was not shot down. Me 262s were perfectly capable of killing their pilots without the enemy's help.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:49
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

Hello ,

Michael Balls Luftwaffe lost list gives :

21/02/1945
2./1
NAGr. 6
Landsberg/Lech (2 km südöstl.)
Abschuß durch P 51 bei Übungsflug
Me 262 A-1a/U3
110565
rote 2 +
Ltn. Knoll, Wilhelm gef.
RLV 1-0-0-0 Lechfeld
GQM (#12-26); Foreman, Me262 Comb.Diary, s.335; Böhme, "Strahlaufklärer Me262" s.70; VDK; O'Connel, s.90

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Old 14th September 2018, 09:43
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

Thanks Alain, but that doesn’t seem to explain where those authors got all their information from. The VDK database does not deal with aircraft, only people and the GQM doesn’t give a tactical code. Smith and Creek in Jet Planes of the Third Reich included a profile as “Red 2” but, after many years had passed, their Me 262 Volume Three only mentioned a Werk Nummer and no P-51s.

The Gen. der Aufklarungsflieger disagrees with the Gen.Qu. about Knoll’s rank (Oberleutnant vs. Leutnant) and unit (1./NAG 1 vs. Stab/NAG 6). Gen.d.A. also gives the cause of death as a crash with no mention of hostile action. (No Me 262 claims for that date on the “Mustang Encounter Reports” web page either).

DeZeng and Stankey offer two “versions” of this loss, including that Knoll was with KG(J) 54 (Siegfried Radtke’s book on KG 54 doesn’t mention him in its narrative or loss tables). They do however have both a Willi Knoll and a “(Werner?) Knoll” who they say was Stafü of 1./NAG 1 (which in my opinion is two entries for the same guy).

And neither of the Generals mentions “Red 2”, so there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding this event.
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Old 14th September 2018, 12:58
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

Hello

About Knoll and according "Philippe SAINTES"

I quote:"he had taken off for a school flight when southeast of Landsberg,he met two enemy fighters.Knoll launched at full speed in their pursuit but before being at sufficient shooting distance,the two Mustangs performed a brutal evasion maneuver well concerted in the back of the german fighter and had no difficulty in shooting him down"

Knoll was actually Staka of 1./NAG 1 but had been transferred to NAG 6

Me.262 A-1a/U3(110565 or? 110585) stab/ NAGR6 red 2 NN+HO

Several remarks:

How these facts were reported (Knoll having been killed)?
He would have been accompanied by another Me.262 (hence school flight)?
Another Me.262 of 2./NAGR.6 crashed (pilot unknown):Me.262 A-1a/U3(110365) red 3.

To my knowledge no other author has made this precise description(difficult to imagine that this story is invented) and only Philippe Saintes could cite his sources.

Michel
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Old 14th September 2018, 13:13
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

On the 4 january 1945 Oberleutnant Knoll is reported as StKptn of 1./NAG 1.
Source BAMA RL 4 II 146

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Old 14th September 2018, 17:13
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Re: Obltn. Wilhelm Knoll

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Originally Posted by ju55dk View Post
On the 4 january 1945 Oberleutnant Knoll is reported as StKptn of 1./NAG 1.
Source BAMA RL 4 II 146

Junker
He had joined 1.(F)/121 early in October 1944 (when the previous Kapitän, Hptm. Ruhe was posted away); that Staffel became 1./NAG 1 in November.
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