Luftwaffe personnel and Nazi-party membership

[VtwinVince]

Membership in the Party didn't automatically mean the member was a "Nazi", or even remotely politically active. Many officers joined the Party to further their professional careers, nothing more. My uncle was an officer in the Luftwaffe, and joined the Party in order to further his career as a judge. Of course he was a Major d.R., which perhaps made it possible to have membership while on active duty.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by odybvig

The point is that not all germans was nazis, as you more or less claims

Where? Poor argument on your side nonetheless, one against millions. I would preffer Graham replying to my post though.

[odybvig]

Franek

You have a fascinating tendency to shoot your self in the foot.
First you ask where you have said that all germans was nazis, then you point out that only one non nazi against millions, So again you more or less claims that all germans was nazis

But you will probably not see the difference in "all are" and the more subtil that you "more or less claims that all was".



Olve Dybvig

[Franek Grabowski]

I wrote that Germans of all religions supported the NS regime, enough of them to win the free elections and enough to allow them to keep power to 1945 without any serious opposition. Everything else is your assumption.

[ArtieBob]

Dear VtwinVince,
Actually being a member of the "party" did mean you were a "Nazi" which is the idiomatic term for a member of the NSDAP. And to join it for personal gain was what many people did and in doing so, ipso facto, supported its actions and power base. If I don't agree with the goals and actions of a political party, religion, industrial company, etc.and I join it for influence or financial gain, then I believe to have compromised my integrity.

On another note, IIRC, the German Catholic political party was one of the strongest Anti-NSDAP paties in Germany. It was disbanded, I believe, by an agreement between Germany and the Vatican.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

[Graham Boak]

I hadn't replied because I haven't been back to this thread until now. The point I was trying to make, perhaps not very well, was not that one individual was against Nazi policies, but that the organisation he led was. Bonhoeffer's church was not the only movement in Germany to oppose Hitler, and whilst it is true that in each case it would only take one single exception for your claim to be strictly correct, I feel you simply do not have the evidence to justify it. Most, yes. The majority, quite likely. All - no.

In response to your latest claim: when opposition leaders and their members were thrown into prison and murdered, it is hardly surprising that internal opposition was muted and incapable of overthrowing the Nazis. The same was true in Communist Russia, Saddam's Iraq, and many other nations ruled by military or civilian despots. It does not mean mass popularity for these regimes - though indeed they may at times have had such.

[Ruy Horta]

There were plenty of Communists and Socialists in Germany, lets assume that a healthy proportion of them did not believe in the Nazi ideals...

The younger generations, those who developed a sense of politics after 1933, might be better suited for generalisation.

[odybvig]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I wrote that Germans of all religions supported the NS regime, enough of them to win the free elections and enough to allow them to keep power to 1945 without any serious opposition. Everything else is your assumption.

As long as all opposition was either shoot or was send to concentration camps you dont get any serious opposition. You of all people Franek, since you are polish, should know better than writing such a stupid frase: "enough to allow them to keep power to 1945 without any serious opposition"

Olve

[Marius]

...Germans of all religions supported the NS regime, enough of them to win the free elections and enough to allow them to keep power to 1945 without any serious opposition...

Very good Franek. What is your point?

Well, Poles of all religions supported the communistic regime, enough of them to win the "free elections" again and again (with almost 100% of all voices) and enough to allow them to keep power between 1945 - 1989 without any serious opposition. Were they all communists?

Best wishes,
Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Oh well, anybody may quote my text, where I stated that all Germans were NS supporters?
I am waiting.
I stand by what I wrote, Germans of all relligions supported NS regime, including Jewes initially. The support was common and there was practically no movement against, apart of communists but it is no reason for pride. No mass emmigration, no mass protests, nothing aimed at NS regime, elected in free elections and not brought on bayonets.
I cannot say much about Iraq, but look at Russia, plenty of Russians, those who managed to, emmigrated. Look at those famous names in aviation: Galitzine, Kartvelli, Rozanoff, Seversky, Sikorski and many, many more. There were thousands of them who escaped, often they changed their names, so you do not recognise a Russian in eg. Richard Marner, ex-RAF, who played a character of a certain Colonel in a certain TV series.
Comparison to Poland is even more a nonsense. Large partisan units were finally defeated in the late 1940s but minor ones continued combat up until 1957. The last Polish partisan was killed in combat in 1963! There were mass protests in 1956, 1970, 1976 and 1980. Marius, when have you left Kattowitz (as you presumably preffer to call Katowice) that you managed to forget it?
Do we have anything like that in NSGermany? No. If there were some opposing groups, they quickly dissapeared because they had no support in the society. It was perfectly OK when Germany bombed Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Belgrade. It was perfectly OK when Gypsies, Jewes, Poles were mass murdered (they knew it and there are documents supporting it). It became not OK when Germany started to lose the war, then Stauffenberg appeared (it is worthy to have a closer look at their political goals). But it was too late, at the time Germany lost the war, that was started by the Germany.
Then, post-war, every German was against the Hitler, and now the one may have impression the Germans were actual victims of the war. Ridiculous.