German Navy Fokker D.VII

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Peter

I doubt very much you will find any new force landings in Holland during WW 1. They were all very well documented by (most likely) Dutch Air Force staff. No it is one and the same aircraft labeled as D.5584 in Dutch files, but showing D.5288 on the rudder.

I am also pretty certain that to be able to dismantle aircraft and later make them airworthy for said Air Force, they needed experts.

Of course these experts were familiar with the aircraft models at the time. Especially so a type already in its lifetime at the front considered to be the best fighter around (or at least one of them) and on top "designed" by a Dutchman. So, yes, they knew perfectly well what a Fokker D.VII was.

You say that Clint introduce the name Baum into this context, but he does not! It is actually you who state the pictured aircraft was flown by this mysterious Baum guy. Check your post 1. From where did you get it?

Enhancing photo 39 was very interesting since all I can read is that the strut in question actually says D.VII (not D.7 as written on the rudder). As far as I am concerned it rather "proves" my point (if not the case) that the rudder is a replacement or the scribbles have been made after landing. Unfortunately I cannot read the actual serial number. It could be anything.

Being completely non-technical, I can only assume that parts made to the Fokker D.VII could be fitted to any Fokker D.VII at the time, ie they were interchangable. Having looked at (by now) some photos which shows parts to be either stencilled or painted with both type and serial number, I am not so sure anymore. Why go to so much trouble labeling parts if they anyway were interchangable? At least I need someone with a lot more insight into why this was so, and also how the D.VII production lines were made up.

I am not saying this aircraft is not D.5288, but since all official documents state D.5584 someone at that time either made a boo-boo or knew something we don't....

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


With regard to Baum, it is at least a possibility that another Flyable Fokker D.VII was interned in France I believe. Jon Guttman in Naval Aces of World War 1 Part 2 P.52 states the following "Flgmt Baum landed his damaged aeroplane in Holland and was interned"


So not so badly damaged that he was killed. Again nothing definite and it remains open until the serial number of his machine and its fate is known. Presumably whatever the state of the machine a record from the dutch authorities must exist?


BTW I'm searching the net at the moment and it looks like 115 was on the rudder when the aircraft landed according to this contemporary dutch source:


http://www.aerofile.info/wordpress/?page_id=1351


I believe this may be significant as the date 15 October is included , while Guttman P.49 says Engelfried and D.5584/18 were interned in Holland 15 September, although he must have been released fairly quickly if so as P.53 credits Engelfried as destroying a gasbag 26 October. Something seems not quite right here!




Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Clint

There were many other D.VIIs which landed in Holland.
I don't have any crew listed for any of them, hence my interest in Baum since I am positive he was not onboard the presently discussed one.

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


Apologies I amended my post after you posted. Not sure it adds any clarity. Perhaps, the opposite in fact.



Regards,


Clint

[Petrusja]

Sorry, I deleted a post which was irrelevant - I also found the Aerofile page.

I think the landing gear strut says Fok. D VII (Alb) and then horizontally a number of which the second digit looks a lot like a 2.

Why paint that on a landing gear strut is a good question but they did it. Fokker and Albatross D.VIIs were completel yun-interchangeable by the way thanks to Fokker's artisan methods.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Guys

I was not aware that Fokker built D.VIIs were not interchangeable with Albatros built ones, but presumably then Alb and OAW were?

Also checked the Aerofiles pages and they certainly say Baum was the pilot and incidentally says the aircraft was D.5584....

I have now checked my secondhand sources for the two pilots in question
The Jasta pilots: Only one Baum, a Ltn d R from Jasta 79b (not our guy)
The Jasta war chronology 15 Oct 1918: Flgmt Baum MFJ 5 interned in Holland
Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-20, part III, POW 15 Oct 1918: FlugzgMt Baum, pilot, MFJ V, Holland interned

None of the above sources have anyone named Karl Engelfried (since he is not in The Jasta pilots, and not under the dates 15 Oct 1918, I have assumed he is not listed anywhere else either, ie different date).

Two questions then pop up, who was Karl Engelfried and from where comes the first name Alfred? Alfred is not mentioned in the three sources above and not on Aerofiles either as far as I can see. Is there a slight chance the pilot actually was Karl Engelfried Baum (possibly also named Alfred)?

Also from where comes the unit details? All my sources says MFJ V or 5. So what was 1e Seeflug Abteilung Marine Jagd Stab IV? Aerofiles even manage to state both these units on their site....

I feel like I am at the end of the line here.
I will re-list the aircraft as either D.5584 or D.5288 and note the problems as initially noticed by Peter. However I am still very certain it is one and the same aircraft/incident....

Thanks Guys for a very rewarding topic. I have enjoyed this discussion tremendously.

Cheers
Stig

[Petrusja]

Thanks Stig.

I would suspect that Alfred's name and the supposed unit name come from the official Dutch dossier which NIMH (associated with the armed forces) would have access to.

I'll try to contact some Dutch people who might be able to help.

Off topic - Fokker could provide no proper drawings to Albatros so they copied the design, and pilots preferred the Albatros-built aircraft. I read somewhere that the OAW version was again not identical.

Peter

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


Engelfried was, as per my post 17 in this thread a real individual who also served with MFJ V and according to Guttman force landed D.55584/18 on 15 Sept 1918.



My take this is incident 1.


Baum force landed on 15 October according again to Guttman P.52. This I believe may be D.5288/18.Not certain of course.



This is incident 2.


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Clint/Peter

I just can't believe two D.VII landed on the same date and at the same place in Holland and on top the officials had no idea and classified "two" landings as one.

Neither can I believe no Dutch historian so far has managed to detect this anomaly.

It would be interested to know why Guttman believes so....

Yes please, Peter, check your end because that is where the solution is to be found,... I hope....

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig/Petrusja,


But my point is the two dates are a month apart. September and October.If Jon Guttman is correct Engelfried and D.5584/18 have no relation to October 15th at all. This is also exactly as stated in the Jasta War Chronolgy all information relates to September 15th.


Therefore the question I ask is have the dutch sources referenced by Petrusja and OTF and Air Enthusiast conflated two seperate incidents.Alternatively, of course the Jasta War chronology and subsequently Jon Guttmann have both got the dates for D.5584/18 incorrect.






I'm not familiar with the periodical writingd you reference Stig, but research is cumulative. Therefore are the most up to date of the various publications are perhaps, most likely to be correct.Also Stig would you be able to supply the names of the authors of the periodical articles you reference.







Regards,


Clint